Questions : Off-Hand Penalty & Unarmed Techniques

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Popov

Grapple ? Penalty
fast-draw (especially if you have the OHWT perk) ? Penalty (haven't read OHWT in MA with enough attention)

Grapple has no penalty.
Fast-draw, if for something which is normally done with that hand, has no penalty.

[DarkTreader]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Basically, if you're unskilled, any strike made with an arm is just a punch at DX and any strike made with a leg is just a kick at DX-2. None of the special rules for elbow and knee strikes apply -- these untrained attacks aren't good enough to reap those benefits.

Actually, and don't have heart attack... I disagree with you Kromm! My books ain't here, but a knee strike is very different mechanically from a kick, and I thought in the 3e MA, there was a knee strike manuever.

A forward elbow I agree is simply a normal punch. A significant amount of the power in a punch (properly executed) comes from your shoulder and body and the motion of the shoulder is much the same in both a punch and elbow strike, they are simply executed at different situations which are too subtle for the game mechanics.

A kick has two main motions, a roundhouse, which uses the leg as a large lever, and a forward thrust to the front or the side. The reduction in leverage is far more significant for a knee strike than it is for the elbow, since the damage of a kick relies on the fact that the leg is longer and stronger and relies on the strength of your leg more than the strength of your hip and gluteus. A knee strike only relies on the strength of your hip. the kick requires a snapping motion involving all the leg muscles while the knee is the thigh swing at the hip only, taking out half of the quad muscle and any whipping or snapping leverage that the knee provides. At the same time, the reduction in length would mean it would have to be a close combat technique, but that it would be easier to execute than a kick.

So it would make sense that a knee strike, executed in close combat, would do thr-1 damage and also be DX-1 to execute. It's essentially a trade off.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DarkTreader

Actually, and don't have heart attack... I disagree with you Kromm! My books ain't here, but a knee strike is very different mechanically from a kick, and I thought in the 3e MA, there was a knee strike manuever.

Of course there is a Knee Strike Technique. Kromm's point was that unskilled people couldn't benefit from it and were forced to rely on their DX default.

Performing special attacks like the Knee Strike and Elbow Strike requires at least 1 point investment in Brawling or Karate. According that that, then every active boy I've known has had a point in Brawling, but perhaps that's realistic.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by DarkTreader

My books ain't here, but a knee strike is very different mechanically from a kick, and I thought in the 3e MA, there was a knee strike manuever.

Please read what I wrote: "Basically, if you're unskilled, any strike made with an arm is just a punch at DX and any strike made with a leg is just a kick at DX-2. None of the special rules for elbow and knee strikes apply -- these untrained attacks aren't good enough to reap those benefits." In other words, there are special rules to differentiate these strikes in 4e; they just don't apply to untrained users, whose technique isn't refined enough to throw these strikes in a way that gives their significant benefits.

[Popov]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Grapple has no penalty.
Fast-draw, if for something which is normally done with that hand, has no penalty.

Folowing Kromm's post, I don't think so. Grapple isn't a unarmed defense, nor it is something done especially with the off-hand.
And for Fast-Draw, I can't see any case where what you told applies except "draw" a shield, which seems strange.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Popov

Folowing Kromm's post, I don't think so. Grapple isn't a unarmed defense, nor it is something done especially with the off-hand.
And for Fast-Draw, I can't see any case where what you told applies except "draw" a shield, which seems strange.

You misread his emphasis, which was on things normally done with the left or either hand, not specifically on unarmed defense.

Grapple is something naturally done with both hands, no off-hand penalties apply.
I'm unaware of any grappling style which doesn't train both hands equally.
Basically for all unarmed combat uses and skills there is no off-hand penalty.
You can dig into MA for some optional rules if you want to add that sort of thing to your game, but those optional rules also go along with Off Hand Training becoming a [1] point perk.

There's also several fast-draw skills in regular use for that type of thing:
Fast-Draw Knife, Main-Gauche, Adaga, Shortsword, Wakisashi, Baton, etc.
Fast-Draw Buckler, Shield, Cape, etc.

[Popov]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

You misread his emphasis, which was on things normally done with the left or either hand, not specifically on unarmed defense.

Grapple is something naturally done with both hands, no off-hand penalties apply.
I'm unaware of any grappling style which doesn't train both hands equally.
Basically for all unarmed combat uses and skills there is no off-hand penalty.
You can dig into MA for some optional rules if you want to add that sort of thing to your game, but those optional rules also go along with Off Hand Training becoming a [1] point perk.

So for you, not only with Karate (which is the only one where it is precised), but with (or without) all unarmed skill, you strike/grapple/grab without taking the Off-Hand penalty ?
I clearly didn't understand this in Kromm's post, who seems to say that only for unarmed defense (and Karate punches) the penalty were avoided.

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

There's also several fast-draw skills in regular use for that type of thing:
Fast-Draw Knife, Main-Gauche, Adaga, Shortsword, Wakisashi, Baton, etc.

But for all this examples, you need OHWT(Weapon Skill) and then OHWT(Fast-Draw : Weapon Skill). At least, that's what I've understood in Martial Arts.

[aesir23]

MA page 124, offers off-hand penalties for unarmed fighters as an optional rule for GM's that like harsh realism. You could still buy Off-Hand Weapon Training (Karate), though.

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

Originally Posted by Popov

. . . Attacks with unarmed combat skills ? (others threads seems to say that no OH penalty is taken, and that it is adressed in MA, but can't find it) Penalty except for Karate . . .

I'd think that you would NOT have an off-hand penalty for a punch if you have any training in Boxing -- leading with your right is NOT a good idea.

[Popov]

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

I'd think that you would NOT have an off-hand penalty for a punch if you have any training in Boxing -- leading with your right is NOT a good idea.

Ok, but that's your interpretation of the rules (which only precise this for Karate skill).
If there wasn't a mention of the lacking penalty with Karate, I'd agree it's up to the GM (The Boxing fighting style could just add OHWT to offset the penalty, or all unarmed skill could have no OH penalty). But it's clear that there is a difference between the unarmed skills, because of this mention. So I think that either we get an errata, or there is a penalty to grapple/punch/grab with your off-hand without Karate.

Am I wrong ?