Unarmed off-hand

[corwyn]

Martial Arts, under Harsh Realism for Unarmed Fighters, says "The Basic Set treats unarmed combat favorably: there's no "off" hand..."

This certainly implies no off-hand penalty, and I'm fairly sure that Kromm has stated on the boards somewhere that this is the case.

But is this explicitly stated anywhere in the core rules, covering unarmed combat in general?

In the Basic Set under the individual skills:

Wrestling/Sumo Wrestling: requires two hands to parry one attack

Boxing: explicitly allows you to parry an attack with each hand, Parry is 2/3+3, no mention of penalty for off hand, no mention of attacking with off hand.
Brawling: Same as Boxing
Judo: Same
Karate: Same PLUS explicitly has no penalty for attacking with the off hand.

So, none of the unarmed skills explicitly say no penalty for parrying with the off-hand but could be considered to implicitly say it while Karate is the only skill to explicitly say no off-hand penalty to attack, implying that the penalty is there for all the rest.

Under the general rules for parrying (no reference to unarmed):
"Parrying with the Off Hand: You parry with your “off” hand (your left or “shield” hand if right handed; see Handedness, p. 17), or with a weapon held in it, at -4 to skill. Since Parry is calculated off half skill, this gives -2 to Parry. You may ignore this penalty if you have the Ambidexterity advantage."

No explicit mention of unarmed but the part I bolded seems to indicate the rule would apply to unarmed.

Under the general rules for parrying unarmed, no mention of off handed penalties one way or another. It seems to me that this would be the place to mention an exception to the off hand parrying penalty. In addition, the wording for parrying with DX is exactly the same as the wording under the four one parry per hand unarmed skills (Your Parry active defense is 3 + half your skill or DX, dropping all fractions.) So if there is no off-hand penalty for skill use, there should not be any off-hand penalty using DX either.

Is there anywhere else in the Basic Set that discusses unarmed parries? Or even something more explicit in Martial Arts?

Do all unarmed skills attack with no off-hand penalty? Do all unarmed skills parry with no off-hand penalty?

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

You've found the relevant bits already:

- Basic Set never says unarmed off-hand parries have a handedness penalty.

- there is no mention of an off-hand attacking penalty for unarmed attacks.

- Martial Arts explicitly states the case that Basic Set makes implicitly, by not mentioning a penalty, and says giving a penalty for off-hand unarmed attacks and parries is an optional rule.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

You've found the relevant bits already:

- Basic Set never says unarmed off-hand parries have a handedness penalty.

- there is no mention of an off-hand attacking penalty for unarmed attacks.

But it does. Otherwise, what is meant by:

"Parrying with the Off Hand: You parry with your “off” hand or with a weapon held in it, at -4 to skill. Since Parry is calculated off half skill, this gives -2 to Parry. You may ignore this penalty if you have the Ambidexterity advantage."

What is meant by "or with a weapon held in it" but indicating that the rule applies without a weapon in your hand - unarmed?

or:

Under Melee Attacks (BS 369): "You can make a melee attack using any ready melee weapon (including a natural weapon such as a kick, bite, or punch)..." That means that all the rules governing melee attacks apply to unarmed attacks as well, unless excluded, right?

Then, under To Hit:

"Applying all conditional modifiers for your maneuver, situation, ...A detailed list appears under Melee Attack Maneuvers." This list includes the off-hand penalty. This means that the off-hand penalty applies to unarmed, unless excluded somewhere.

So please point out where the Basic Set excludes unarmed attacks from the above rules, or where my logic fails.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by corwyn

But it does. Otherwise, what is meant by:

"Parrying with the Off Hand: You parry with your “off” hand or with a weapon held in it, at -4 to skill. Since Parry is calculated off half skill, this gives -2 to Parry. You may ignore this penalty if you have the Ambidexterity advantage."

What is meant by "or with a weapon held in it" but indicating that the rule applies without a weapon in your hand - unarmed?

or:

Under Melee Attacks (BS 369): "You can make a melee attack using any ready melee weapon (including a natural weapon such as a kick, bite, or punch)..." That means that all the rules governing melee attacks apply to unarmed attacks as well, unless excluded, right?

Then, under To Hit:

"Applying all conditional modifiers for your maneuver, situation, ...A detailed list appears under Melee Attack Maneuvers." This list includes the off-hand penalty. This means that the off-hand penalty applies to unarmed, unless excluded somewhere.

So please point out where the Basic Set excludes unarmed attacks from the above rules, or where my logic fails.

As you have pointed out, Basic excludes Karate from off-hand penalties for both attacking and parrying, and Boxing, Brawling and Judo from penalties for parrying. Technically, the latter three should suffer off-hand penalties on attacks, while simply using DX for unarmed combat should probably give you off-hand penalties for both attack and defense.
I think the quote from Martial Arts is referring to Karate specifically.
That said, one of the cool things about Brawling (vs. Karate) is that there's no restriction on being armed. I think it's kind of cool to stab one guy with a sword and punch the other, so I would probably scrap off-hand penalties for unarmed attacks and defenses in general. That's house-rule territory though.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by corwyn

So please point out where the Basic Set excludes unarmed attacks from the above rules, or where my logic fails.

I'll do something very simple instead, and point out that GURPS Martial Arts explicitly says that giving an off-hand penalty to unarmed skills is Harsh Realism and that Basic Set doesn't give you such penalties.

It's all in that box on p. 124 of Martial Arts.

I'm not sure what else you need. If that's not sufficient, rule however you think Basic Set and Martial Arts are telling you to rule on this.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by corwyn

So please point out where the Basic Set excludes unarmed attacks from the above rules, or where my logic fails.

Your logic is sound: the plain reading of GURPS Basic Set indicates that Karate, and Karate alone, is excluded from off-hand penalties.

Originally Posted by Gnome

As you have pointed out, Basic excludes Karate from off-hand penalties for both attacking and parrying, and Boxing, Brawling and Judo from penalties for parrying.

Actually, corwyn was pointing out that by Basic-Set-only, Boxing, Brawling and Judo (all unarmed skills except Karate, to be clear) suffer from off-hand penalties—attacks and defenses both.

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

I'll do something very simple instead, and point out that GURPS Martial Arts explicitly says that giving an off-hand penalty to unarmed skills is Harsh Realism and that Basic Set doesn't give you such penalties.

It's all in that box on p. 124 of Martial Arts.

I'm not sure what else you need. If that's not sufficient, rule however you think Basic Set and Martial Arts are telling you to rule on this.

Peter V. Dell'Ort is correct: now that we have GURPS Martial Arts, there is no more confusion.