Can a Navy SEAL be made for 200 cps?

[HANS]

>how many starting character points do you allow players?


The SEAL package is 250 points. You can get a further 20 using disadvantages and quirks, plus 25 to fill up the 275 suggested for a realistic campaign. It is tight, but within the general precedence in SPECIAL OPS 3e.

Cheers

HANS

[Twyll]

Originally Posted by copeab

Yeah, given the increased costs of IQ and DX in 4e, and what levels the SEAL needs them at (I think it was 14 or 15 in SO 3e), something around 275 sounds right.

4E attribute costs were adjusted to avoid abuses on DX and IQ scores, as they're the one mainly used for skills. Now do you really think that real seals are genius with IQ 14 or olympic champions with DX 14 ? Obviously not. You should begin by lowering DX and IQ requirements to be a seal, IMHO.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Twyll

4E attribute costs were adjusted to avoid abuses on DX and IQ scores, as they're the one mainly used for skills. Now do you really think that real seals are genius with IQ 14 or olympic champions with DX 14 ? Obviously not. You should begin by lowering DX and IQ requirements to be a seal, IMHO.

GURPS IQ also represents knowledge and education, Will and Perception, it does not equate to real world IQ.
A DX 14 is not Olympic Champion level, though it's close, nothing wrong with that, after all, some Navy SEALS are Olympic Champions.
Since the 1952 Olympic Games, 107 Navy athletes have represented the United States in the Olympics, winning 22 gold medals, six silver medals and six bronze medals.
Being a Navy SEAL is a top 1% of the elite personnel pool type of thing. It's not for everybody, and it's not average, they don't draw from average.

[Tom Schoene]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

GURPS IQ also represents knowledge and education, Will and Perception, it does not equate to real world IQ.
[snip]
Being a Navy SEAL is a top 1% of the elite personnel pool type of thing. It's not for everybody, and it's not average, they don't draw from average.

However, the 1% they look for is not really either knowledge or physical coordination. The SEAL selection course (and almost all other SOF courses) do screen somewhat for intelligence, but far more for physical fitness and willpower. I would have no qualms at all about designing a SEAL with IQ 12 and DX 12, but with HT 13, the Fit or Very Fit advantages, and enough Strong Will to push their Will roll to at least 15.

Remember that in 4e stats of 13+ are "immediately apparent...to those who meet you." (B14). Well, I've met a couple of SEALs and their intelligence was not immediately apparent. They weren't dumb by any means, but what I remember is their focus and intensity, not necessarily their intellect.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Tom Schoene

Remember that in 4e stats of 13+ are "immediately apparent...to those who meet you." (B14). Well, I've met a couple of SEALs and their intelligence was not immediately apparent. They weren't dumb by any means, but what I remember is their focus and intensity, not necessarily their intellect.

I would say more like Very Fit, not just Fit.
I would say their Perception is "immediately apparent."
I would agree regarding your observation of their focus and intensity.
In this situation, their GURPS IQ would reflect that focus and intensity, not necessarily an intellectual bent.

Unless you can figure out a way to model that focus and intensity and how it applies to learning and using skills, sometype of Intense Training Talent or somesuch, then the best way to model it currently, it is with GURPS IQ & DX.

Applying 2-3 levels of a Large Talent which would apply to both mental and physical skills would allow IQ & DX to be at 12.
Without applying a Talent to their skills, they you have to bring those two stats up to 14.

I suppose the easy thing to do is just call it a Special Forces Talent, and include in 20 or so Primary Skills necessary.

[TheDS]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

200 points isn't an average joe, by any stretch of the imagination. You could make a scientific genius, a wealthy celebrity or a professional athlete with less points than that.

That's pretty much my point. If the other characters are what you suggest, then the only combat whore is the SEAL, and his talents for destruction will not seem mild in comparison to the other characters. However, if other characters are designed with combat in mind (I made a quite respectable Marine out of only 100 points in 3e a couple years back), then this SEAL is not going to seem as talented in comparison and will need more points.

[Rasmus Wagner]

Originally Posted by GURPS Special Forces

These templates are intended to generate top-notch versions of already "elite" soldiers for use as heroic player characters. The GM can lower DX or IQ by one or two (to a minimum of 11, or 12 for a 200 point template) for "typical" NPCs.

I realize that a lot of people idolize Seals, and other Special Forces soldiers. Sure, they're tough, and they're not stupid. But, like any other organisation, they display their best and brightest. The olympic seals are elite even among their peers.

[Der Wanderer]

Just a some small questions.
-What IQ does your James-Bond guy have?
-Why would a Seal need IQ of 14 (IQ of 11 is already above average and most likely enough)? They are rather the best, because they train hard (Yes also those IQ-tests), they trained every situation imaginable and they are very well equipped.

To represent their focus and intensity i would rather suggest using Single-Minded and Visualization or increase IQ with the (Does not add to skills) Limitation, so he can have high IQ without having high skill defaults (and the not combat oriented members of the team still have their niche)

[HANS]

>To represent their focus and intensity i would rather suggest using Single-Minded and Visualization or increase IQ with the (Does not add to skills) Limitation, so he can have high IQ without having high skill defaults

This does not work. GURPS SPECIAL OPS templates (and, as I understand, most other templates as well) are COST-OPTIMISED. Since SEALs have proficiency in a very large number of IQ-based skills, they need relatively high IQ to keep skill costs in check. Sure, you could create a SEAL with IQ 11 -- but you would need to pay way more points for skills. In this case, a higher IQ stat (in the 12-14 range -- I suggest 13) could represent a quicker learning curve (rather than pure brain power), something definitely displayed by these chaps, and also give high Perception and Will, something we probably all agree they need.
In short, SEALs and other special ops type characters need higher stats than average (and 11 is not enough). In GURPS 4e, they should not be quite as high as in 3e. I got good results with stats in the 12-13 range.

Cheers

HANS

[Der Wanderer]

So there are two simple solutions:
-Increase starting point value (increase it to 300) instead of just optimizing/tweaking the Seal, that sounds much fairer for the other players than just trying to figure out how to make a much more powerful character with less points.

-Instead of making the Ueber-Dire-Navy-Seal (aka the Best of the Best) make an average Seal, still good but not perfect. Usually Seals do not operate on their own there is a team and not everybody in this team is a Sharpshooter/Computer-wiz/Tactician/Mechanic/CloseCombatChampion (Though I agree all of them are physically fit, and have combat training). As already mentioned above, those presented on TV (not in movies) are their darlings and not the average Seal.