Star Trek Campaigns: Prime Directive vs GURPS Space/Spaceships/Psionics 4e

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by maximara

Based on the actual TOS I would put Star Trek in Kirk's era at TL(6+3)^ ie most of the "realistic" tech is TL9 with everything else in the superscience category.

Do you reeeeaaaallly want to go there? You know very well that identifying the "correct" TL of Star Trek approaches religious war around here.

My recommendation: since Prime Directive probably won't satisfy you, go with the generic books. Don't try to assimilate everything at once. Focus on the basics: maybe the stats for phasers, tricorders, and communicators, and just start playing. You can wing ship operations and combat with appropriate skills and your knowledge of the shows. As you play, decide what areas you'd like to expand and read just those rules, then apply them as you'd like.

Avoid trying to get everything perfect or fully detailed before you start. You'll never get started that way. It doesn't have to be perfect; it just has to be good enough until you have time to get better.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

All right one more time. I'll just point out one thing. It is extremely problematic to do it that way because it means that technology does not advance in Starfleet. It always stays the same, meaning that the scene where Scott appears in TNG and has trouble with the new technology on board the Enterprise-D could not happen because there is no new technology. Scott's engineering roll would not be penalized.

Um, I'm not sure how you get the bolded bit out of the post you quoted. The tech in Kirk's time may be TL6+3^ or TL7+2^, but that doesn't mean that the tech in TNG isn't something like TL7+3^, nor that the superscience doesn't advance.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Um, I'm not sure how you get the bolded bit out of the post you quoted. The tech in Kirk's time may be TL6+3^ or TL7+2^, but that doesn't mean that the tech in TNG isn't something like TL7+3^, nor that the superscience doesn't advance.

It is Maximara's usual position that superscience does not have a tech level. Things that don't have TLs can not advance in their (nonexistent)TLs.

He also tends to ignore the effect of TL on Starting Wealth. It can be argued that ST tends to ahve a very high TL because they build their "warships" like cruise liners. Eventually (TNG) they appear to have so much money they start pretending that it doesn't exist.

Yes we've been round and round about this more than once.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

All right one more time. I'll just point out one thing. It is extremely problematic to do it that way because it means that technology does not advance in Starfleet. It always stays the same, meaning that the scene where Scott appears in TNG and has trouble with the new technology on board the Enterprise-D could not happen because there is no new technology. Scott's engineering roll would not be penalized.

You are forgetting about familiarly which can incur a penalty.

For example, a Newcomen and Watt Steam engine are both TL5 but they are different enough that one incurs a penalty (perhaps -5 or even higher) in operation and repair going from one to the other.

Another example is a Model T vs a Chevrolet Series AD Universal. Both of them are TL6 automobiles but very different in a host of operation, maintenance, and repair that IMHO a -3 to skill between the two of them would be reasonable and that might be lowballing the penalties.

Heck, I had similar problem as my drivers ed course at school taught us in a compact car and I had to basically relearn everything to handle my father's 1970 Chevy because it was so huge and handled way differently from the car I was taught in.

Computer Programing is an excellent example of a skill that has familiarly penalties. Knowing C is going to help a little in learning Pascal but until you get used to it you will not be using or understanding it as well as you did C.

In short Scotty has problems not because the TL had improved but the way the technology worked had changed ie refinement.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It is Maximara's usual position that superscience does not have a tech level.

Its not my view.

"By definition, it is impossible to set a firm TL for superscience -– we might discover faster-than-light travel tomorrow, a thousand years from now, or never.. Equipment TLs are TLs are arbitrary. To reflect this, the rules give the TL of superscience developments as “^” instead of a number." (Basic Set 513-4)

Heck, this is supported by the fact that broadcast power has two radically different numbered TLs connected with the superscience. Gernsback has it as TL6^ while GURPS UltraTech gives it as TL10^. Biotech did superscience right by not connecting a number to the superscience but Ultra=tech dropped the ball.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Things that don't have TLs can not advance in their (nonexistent)TLs.

That is total nonsense. One only need go through the list of realties in GURPS to see the break between superscience and "real" TL. For example, Etheria has manned interplanetary space flight which is normally TL9 but the setting is TL(5+1) and their spacecraft are TL5^! Cyrano is likely the most extreme with TL(5+4) (space travel, TL4^).

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

He also tends to ignore the effect of TL on Starting Wealth.

Which has little bearing on the Star Trek universe as they can manufature things we would view as valuable, like diamonds, rubies, and sapphires by the ton. ("Catspaw"). In fact, it seems like the only physical thing that is shown to be really valuable is dilithium. Heck, if Harry Mudd is to believed the miners of dilithium are so rich in Kirk's era that they can buy planets. ("Mudd's Women"). And yet they live in conditions that that would qualify as "poor" by GURPS standards.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It can be argued that ST tends to ahve a very high TL because they build their "warships" like cruise liners. Eventually (TNG) they appear to have so much money they start pretending that it doesn't exist.

The flaw there is it is clear that Star Trek has a Post-scarcity Economy which totally trashes GURPS wealth rules.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by maximara

In fact, it seems like the only physical thing that is shown to be really valuable is dilithium.

We know of a lot of valuable minerals, actually. Pergium, "Devil in the Dark". Topaline, "Friday's Child". Zenite gas, "The Cloud Minders". Ryetalyn, "Requiem for Methusaleh". Kevas and Trillium. "Errand of Mercy" and "The Trouble with Tribbles". (Not always clear how valuable those were -- but they're worth going to other star systems to get, rather than replicate at home.) And then TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise all added their own.

Trek is just simply inconsistent with its handling of trade, money, and a post-scarcity economy with replicators. There's really no thoroughly logical and consistent way to explain it. So pick something for your version of the setting and stick with that. Don't worry if it conflicts with this episode or that quote, because any system will conflict except for the system "make up whatever you need for each episode".

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

You are forgetting about familiarly which can incur a penalty.

For example, a Newcomen and Watt Steam engine are both TL5 but they are different enough that one incurs a penalty (perhaps -5 or even higher) in operation and repair going from one to the other.

Another example is a Model T vs a Chevrolet Series AD Universal. Both of them are TL6 automobiles but very different in a host of operation, maintenance, and repair that IMHO a -3 to skill between the two of them would be reasonable and that might be lowballing the penalties.

Heck, I had similar problem as my drivers ed course at school taught us in a compact car and I had to basically relearn everything to handle my father's 1970 Chevy because it was so huge and handled way differently from the car I was taught in.

Computer Programing is an excellent example of a skill that has familiarly penalties. Knowing C is going to help a little in learning Pascal but until you get used to it you will not be using or understanding it as well as you did C.

In short Scotty has problems not because the TL had improved but the way the technology worked had changed ie refinement.

No, that's not possible. If the technology never improves there is no refinement. Which incidentally means it would never improve in performance.

Here's the thing. The GM can introduce a given super science at any tech level. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have a tech level associated with it in the context of the setting.

[Ezra]

Yeah, the more I look at the GPD book, the more it wins me over. The phasers are not such a big deal. Raising the point buy-in isn't either.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Ezra

Yeah, the more I look at the GPD book, the more it wins me over. The phasers are not such a big deal. Raising the point buy-in isn't either.

It's not 100% faithful but it does the job.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by maximara

Heck, this is supported by the fact that broadcast power has two radically different numbered TLs connected with the superscience. Gernsback has it as TL6^ while GURPS UltraTech gives it as TL10^. Biotech did superscience right by not connecting a number to the superscience but Ultra=tech dropped the ball.

Bio-Tech didn't leave the number off superscience device because they don't have a tech level. It left them off because the tech level they have will vary by campaign, and so it's up to the GM to set it. The TL of a superscience device ins't 'it doesn't have one' it's 'the GM decides'.

Here's what Bio-Tech says about Forced-Growth Tanks (BT21) as an example:

Originally Posted by Bio-Tech

At present, it is unclear whether this is even possible, so forced-growth tanks are superscience – the GM must decide at what TL, if any, this technology becomes available.

Oh, and Ultra-Tech explains why it assigns TLs to superscience. From UT10:

Originally Posted by Ultra-Tech

Ultra-Tech assigns a default TL for most superscience technologies to give GMs a ready-to-use catalog and provide handy guidelines for gadgeteering. However, there is no reason superscience can’t appear earlier. Most such technologies require exotic breakthroughs (or breakdowns) in the laws of physics, but these breakthroughs can occur at any TL.