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Old 07-15-2019, 12:16 PM   #1
b-dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Default Idea for turning undead

The rules for turning undead sort of nerf the power of the undead so here is a new idea. A cleric or holy warrior displays his holy symbol and then any undead with in the radius of its power will take damage equal to the amount the cleric or holy warrior won by (the undead must have a quick contest of Wills with the clerics Will and Power Investiture) So a wight with Will 12 rolls 11 and a cleric Will + Power Investiture 18 rolls 12 so the cleric won by 6 minus the 1 from the Will roll of the wight. This leads to a net 5 win so if the undead wishes to attack the cleric then he takes 5 points of damage per second. If he stays out of the radius he takes no damage. Mindless undead like zombies will refuse to enter the radius and they will be turned away like normal.
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Old 07-15-2019, 02:05 PM   #2
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: Idea for turning undead

There's a fine line between 'this power makes this class of enemy unusable' and 'this power is useless'. Often, it's easiest to just not let people take certain powers (or decide that you're okay with a certain class of threat becoming a non-threat, and throwing just enough of them at the party to let the character have his moment of glory, but relying on other things for legitimate challenge).
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Old 07-15-2019, 02:51 PM   #3
evileeyore
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Default Re: Idea for turning undead

I prefer Peter Dell'Orto's take on Alternative True Faith.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:09 PM   #4
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: Idea for turning undead

I'm not really sure turning is a problem. The niche where it really truly shines is quite narrow—against
  1. Large numbers of
  2. low-level
  3. undead
  4. who are either "truly evil" or animated by magic that's "truly evil"
  5. and who either lack ranged attacks, or which the PCs are fighting in conditions too confined for them to back up out of turning range
If (1) doesn't hold, single-target "save or suck" effects are available which don't require nearly the character point investment. If (2) doesn't hold, the chance the undead will "save" can increase significantly. (3) and (4) are obviously required for Turning to work at all, but (4) is easy to overlook—not all undead are truly evil. (5) won't hold if the PCs are meeting a legion of skeleton-archers in an open field, or confronting the lich-queen in her massive throne-room with the 70' dome. Oh, and a bonus (6): turning is unhelpful against horrid skulls.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:23 PM   #5
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Idea for turning undead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
I'm not really sure turning is a problem.
It's kind of a problem, but not because it's unbalanced. In general it's a problem to have a power that is super good against a narrow class of opponent and worthless against everything else, because it means a certain number of encounters become irrelevant, and outside that narrow set you're underpowered.
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Old 07-16-2019, 08:40 AM   #6
Dalin
 
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Default Re: Idea for turning undead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
It's kind of a problem, but not because it's unbalanced. In general it's a problem to have a power that is super good against a narrow class of opponent and worthless against everything else, because it means a certain number of encounters become irrelevant, and outside that narrow set you're underpowered.
True, but it does emerge from genre tropes. This was a major ability for D&D clerics, after all. The difficulty in DFRPG seems to be for adventure writers because they can't assume that any given party has access to the power. It seems like any adventure with undead needs a sidebar that offers adjustments for groups with or without the power (depending on the default assumption of the adventure).

My view is that if a PC takes the ability, then I am (as GM) committed to providing opportunities to use the power. I might occasionally provide a few "irrelevant" encounters, just to highlight the awesome holy power, but mostly I would design encounters to put pressure on the cleric and group in other ways. The idea would be that the group should feel like the cleric's Turning ability is super useful because they never would have survived without it. There's lots of ways to still have scary undead, even weak undead, with this power in play.

With that said, I also have no problem re-imagining the ability in different ways. B-dog's idea of causing damage seems plausible. I'd have to playtest it to get a sense of how it balances.

Last edited by Dalin; 07-16-2019 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:14 AM   #7
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Idea for turning undead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
True, but it does emerge from genre tropes. This was a major ability for D&D clerics, after all.
And has actually been majorly nerfed over the editions.
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