Can't decide on Gurps 4e or Hero 6e

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Damurack

I'm glad to get any information from players on Hero, (I've actually gotten more info about Hero on this forum then the Hero Forum ironically). I'm still in the debate between systems, and from what I have gathered so far, favor is leaning more towards GURPS, however, I am a huge fan of development and it seems like I can develop more freely in Hero. I am still waiting on more response on other forums, which has been slim compared to this. But I'm glad to get info from Hero fans, no matter which site it is on. :)

Ok, so here's what I'd recommend you do: develop your setting as much as possible without reference to game mechanics at all. Use real world measurements as much as possible. Then pick up the GURPS and HERO books and see which works better for what you're moving toward. You'll end up doing a lot of work with either system.

I'd also recommend playing, or at least sitting in on, a sample game with both systems; does anyone else in your group have experience with either system? Does anyone else local to you?

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Damurack

Let's say I want to make a molecular transporter (I'm not saying this hasn't been made for in game, but let's say it hasn't) There are no skills in the book for it's use, so I have to make my own. It also may be used in a combat situation to tear apart beings on a molecular state. How would I create saves, or damage in this case?

If building it as a character ability (either innate or a gadget), that would be Affliction (Warp), with Innate Attack (probably corrosive) as an alternate ability. Determining the damage would be up to the designer.

Incidentally, the skill Electronics Operation (Matter Transmitters) is in the Basic Set.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by RyanW

If building it as a character ability (either innate or a gadget), that would be Affliction (Warp), with Innate Attack (probably corrosive) as an alternate ability. Determining the damage would be up to the designer.

Incidentally, the skill Electronics Operation (Matter Transmitters) is in the Basic Set.

I might say Corrosive Attack (Cosmic, +300%) to represent an ability to ignore armor, depending on the actual "physics" of the attack in the game world.

Bill Stoddard

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Damurack

That's good to know, If I can keep my players alive, they may have more interest in remaining in the game.

Well, for example, in my alternate history/martial arts campaign, the player characters recently went up against a small group of mercenary Polish hussars in the pay of a Chinese admiral who had imperial ambitions, while making their way across England with a load of contraband saltpeter. One of them, an Irish ex-marine, took a saber cut to the head that got through his skull's DR, representing at least a crack in the skull and concussion damage, if not actual brains leaking out. But the player made the HT roll(!) and so the character went on fighting, and lasted till the hussars were all dead before collapsing. And then the PC surgeon was able to keep him alive, though he has a major new scar and the hair along it is coming in white.

The great lifesaver in GURPS is unreasonably high HT. A character with HT 16 can do a Rasputin. The second great lifesaver is a high Dodge, amped if possible by Combat Reflexes, Acrobatics, and maybe Daredevil; if they can't hit you, it doesn't matter how hard they hit. The third is straightforward good armor. All of those are possible for normal human beings with at most some cinematic abilities; GURPS Powers and GURPS Supers offer some higher-end options if you want "nothing less than a bursting shell."

Bill Stoddard

[Celjabba]

Of course, if it is 'off the shelf' gear, that can be bough in store, you don't need to stat it in Gurps, its point value is (mostly) meaningless.

Just write what it do, assign dice of damage and special effect, decide a $ cost (and perhaps a legality class), and you are good to go.

You only need to stat it if
-It is build as a gadget (ie an item linked conceptualy to a character)
-It is build as an innate ability
-It may be summoned or invoqued (unlikely in this case)
-It act as an ally (unlikely in this case)

Celjabba

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Damurack

Let's say I want to make a molecular transporter (I'm not saying this hasn't been made for in game, but let's say it hasn't) There are no skills in the book for it's use, so I have to make my own. It also may be used in a combat situation to tear apart beings on a molecular state. How would I create saves, or damage in this case?

In Hero, you could do it as either a Killing Attack or a BODY Drain, depending on the exact special effects. Assuming it also functions as a teleporter or Star Trek-style transporter, you could build it into a Multipower, with whichever attack Power you use as one slot and Teleport as another.

For the Skill, using it as an attack would require a Weapon Familiarity (probably with a Heavy Energy Weapons group). System Operation would work to run it, possibly Transport Familiarity: Molecular Transport, or possibly Power Skill: Molecular Transport.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by corwyn

In that case, while I prefer GURPS for anything I'm willing to use either for, I'll heartily vote for Hero. Going from heroic to supers in Hero is a much easier transition. Some people on here will advocate gurps for super but It's a lot more work and Hero will emulate typical comics much more easily.

Actually, while I agree that doing the comics in GURPS takes work (I did a lot of it in GURPS Supers), I don't think Hero is all that close a fit either. Hero is a game about tactical conflict between superhumans; it defines all the battle capabilities with much more precision than in the comics. And it doesn't really spend much space on the character interaction that's vital to many of today's soap operatic comics. Of course you can do that in Hero by the "just roleplay" method, but you can do that in pretty much any system.

What happened with Hero is that it created a new genre related to the superhero narratives of the comics, just as D&D created a new genre related to classic sword and sorcery by Howard or Leiber or Vance.

Bill Stoddard

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Actually, while I agree that doing the comics in GURPS takes work (I did a lot of it in GURPS Supers), I don't think Hero is all that close a fit either. Hero is a game about tactical conflict between superhumans; it defines all the battle capabilities with much more precision than in the comics. And it doesn't really spend much space on the character interaction that's vital to many of today's soap operatic comics. Of course you can do that in Hero by the "just roleplay" method, but you can do that in pretty much any system.

What happened with Hero is that it created a new genre related to the superhero narratives of the comics, just as D&D created a new genre related to classic sword and sorcery by Howard or Leiber or Vance.

Bill Stoddard

I feel the need to interject that I wish more comic book writers at least learned a good points based RPG system and used it as a reference if not out and out statting up major characters because there are so many moments of internal inconsistency or flat out "Fridge Logic" moments that ruin suspension of disbelief... that if they had been gamers wouldn't have happened.

I think the biggest gripe is character creation where the guy the writer thought was awesomely powerful is actually limited, the guy he thought was a novelty actually has a great power, and the guys meant to be in the middle most definitely are not...

...which relates to this discussion because it can be hard to sort out when it isn't a flaw with the game system (be it HERO or GURPS) and more just "This story wasn't thought out with an RPG or reality in mind."

[Joe]

To me, high point value GURPS combat feels like this: (gritty, kind-of-sort-of-real-feeling, but actually extremely cinematic combat)
And low point value GURPS combat feels like this: (in my view, the most absolutely realistic fight scene ever filmed).

Whereas high point value HERO combat feels like this: (clip)
and low-point value HERO combat feels a bit like this: (clip)


I'm just being silly.

If I have a serious point (a big "if") it's just what others have said: if you run them straight out of the box, GURPS defaults to realism, and HERO defaults to a more comic-book feel, at least in its combat - which the rules assume you will focus on. Each can do the other, with a bit of tweaking.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Otaku

I feel the need to interject that I wish more comic book writers at least learned a good points based RPG system and used it as a reference if not out and out statting up major characters because there are so many moments of internal inconsistency or flat out "Fridge Logic" moments that ruin suspension of disbelief... that if they had been gamers wouldn't have happened.

I think the biggest gripe is character creation where the guy the writer thought was awesomely powerful is actually limited, the guy he thought was a novelty actually has a great power, and the guys meant to be in the middle most definitely are not...

...which relates to this discussion because it can be hard to sort out when it isn't a flaw with the game system (be it HERO or GURPS) and more just "This story wasn't thought out with an RPG or reality in mind."

I don't think that game thinking is any kind of a solution. Game mechanics contains all sorts of approximations and simplifications for the sake of keeping the thing manageable as a game, but that don't necessarily work well if you're trying to use them as an image of reality. A lot of unsatisfying fiction has been written this way. Of course you can avoid this if you refer your game rules and mechanics back to the real world—but then you can just as well think about the real world when you're writing the story. Why not cut out the middleman?

Bill Stoddard