Fragile (Unnatural) margin of failure on death roll

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

It's pretty fair to point out when rules text is written so that the legalistic reading doesn't give the intended interpretation.

Doesn't mean you should play with an obviously-undesired legalistic RAW interpretation, of course.

The rule says "You automatically fail the HT roll to stay alive if reduced to -HP or below, as that much damage severs your ties with the force that animates you." (bolding mine)

Seems very cut and dried to me.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

The rule says "You automatically fail the HT roll to stay alive if reduced to -HP or below, as that much damage severs your ties with the force that animates you." (bolding mine)

Nothing about that prevents being mortally wounded -- a mortally wounded target is incapacitated and therefore not animated.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Nothing about that prevents being mortally wounded -- a mortally wounded target is incapacitated and therefore not animated.

That's up to the metaphysics of the campaign then.

I've said my piece on this rule.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

That's up to the metaphysics of the campaign then.

I've said my piece on this rule.

But what the Disadvantage does is not up to the metaphysics of the campaign. That's not how it works.

I don't believe the authors intended to use that fluffy clause to modify the rules implications of what came before, but if they did, it would have been a bad plan.

[Anthony]

For those complaining about how I'm obviously ignoring the fluff text, note:

Originally Posted by Anthony

So... should one assume that Fragile(Unnatural) means you always fail death rolls by 3+?

If you think that Fragile(Immortal) means 'Dead at -HP', the answer to that question is 'yes'. Alternately, you can just change "You automatically fail the HT roll to stay alive if reduced to -HP or below" to "You automatically die if reduced to -HP or below" (these two options are only different when in combination with fragile(explosive), and arguably fragile(explosive) should add automatic explosion on automatic death effects).

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Anthony

(...) arguably fragile(explosive) should add automatic explosion on automatic death effects).

As I see it, the chance of explosion within “fragile explosive” should have its own dice roll. It is another disadvantage after all.

“Unnatural” simply makes you die at hp<0.

It is like buying success. When you buy success you don’t buy a margin of success. You succeed by 0. The same should apply to auto-failure with “fragile unnatural”, it is “failure by 0” (so to say).

“Fragile explosive” says you may explode if the dice roll fails by a certain amount. I do not think that the automatic failure of “unnatural” triggers the explosion because it’s a marginal effect (“failure by 0”, following my example).

[Mark Skarr]

I see Fragile (Unnatural) as simply ignoring the fact that mortal wounds is a possibility. Mortal wounds simply do not interact with the Fragile (Unnatural) disadvantage. The subject with Fragile (Unnatural) is reduced to –HP and they are now dead. There is no roll, there is no interpretation, they simply go to dead. They do not pass go. They do not collect $200.

Now, if you have Fragile (Unnatural) and Fragile (Explosive), I would have them roll HT when they reach –HP, not to see if they survive or suffer a mortal wound, but to see if they explode. They are already dead. The Fragile (Unnatural) rules has side-stepped the need to determine if a mortal wound is suffered—the subject is simply dead. However, the interaction with Fragile (Explosive) requires a roll in the same way that some abilities with Cosmic (No Roll Required) may require a roll to determine a Margin of Success for some effects.

If the subject with Fragile (Unnatural, Explosive) makes their HT roll upon reaching –HP (or fail by only one or two), they die but do not explode. If they fail the HT roll by three or more, they explode as well. Not only are they merely dead, they’re really, most sincerely, dead.

[Dalin]

Text from the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy line and the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game shed some light on this debate. In DFRPG, the GURPS trait "Fragile (Unnatural)" becomes simply "Unnatural." The key text from the trait description is (emphasis added): "Being wounded to ‑1×HP or worse immediately severs its ties with its binding or animating force, causing instant death or banishment to another plane" (Monsters, p.14). Of course, DFRPG ≠ GURPS, but it can be helpful because it is a much more recent product and includes some additional polish on the basic rules.

The regular DF line, however, uses mostly standard GURPS advantages and disadvantages, right? In GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1 there is explicit textual evidence of Kromm's interpretation of Fragile (Unnatural):

• Page 5 — Bronze Spiders: "Fortunately for delvers, Fragile (Unnatural) means the spiders fall apart at -15 HP."
• Page 7 — Ciuaclán: "The delvers will likely have little choice but to batter the ciuaclán down to -HP (36 points of injury) – where Fragile (Unnatural) will dispel them."
• Page 9 — Demons from Between the Stars: "They have 21 HP and can take 42 points of injury before Fragile (Unnatural) sends them home."

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Hide

“Unnatural” simply makes you die at hp<0.

-HP is not "HP<0". It's at what ever your regular HP is less than 0.

So if you have 10 HP, Fragile (Unnatural) means you automatically die when you drop to or below -10 HP.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anthony

"The blast instantly reduces you to -10xHP, regardless of the damage it inflicts".

If you wanted to combine this effect with Unkillable 3, it's ignorance of death rolls means the "by 3+" wouldn't apply, but since they still make HT rolls against Major Wounds (I think this refers to Knockdowns?) it sounds like you could still explode that way.

Supernatural Durability + Fragile (Explosive) might also be fun, since you can only be killed by non-vulnerabilty that does 10xHP and your explosion only does 6dxHP/10 although you could interpret something that reduces you to -10xHP as inflicting that much?