Bad Back (Severe) - several of doubts

[GWJ]

1.

Severe: The HT roll is at -2. On a failure, DX and IQ are both at -4 until you receive rest or help; you are in constant agony. On a critical failure, you take 1d-3 damage and are at -6 DX and -4 IQ

Is this agony only a fluff, or "Agony" condition? If it is fluff - why critical failure at "Mild" roll is more serious than even critical failure at "Severe" roll? If this is Agony, how are effects of this penalties, if character can't do nothing except lying and crying because of agonizing state?

2.

Modifiers: Any modifiers to the success roll for the activity that triggered the HT roll

What about Contests, especially Quick Contest? And what about "universal actions"? For example if my character with Bad Back has warhammer, and it was stuck in the foe, he must make ST roll for pulling weapon. It doesn't mean if my character have ST 10 or ST 20?

3. Does Fit and Very Fit applies to this HT roll?

4. Any penalties to the First Aid Roll with "Severe" version?

5.

On a failure, you throw your back

What exactly this mean? Drop weapon? Fall to the ground?

6. What if HT roll for Bad Back is failed, but roll which triggered this, is successful?

7. If Bad Back roll is triggered by active defense or attack (usually critical failure), does effects of disadvantage are PLUS usual critical failure result, or INSTEAD of them?

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by GWJ

5.

What exactly this mean? Drop weapon? Fall to the ground?

My inference is that "throw your back" is an English language term that is more meaningful to native speakers than to someone like me.

[GWJ]

Yeah, I think you're right. But I know +/- how type of pain is "thrown back". I've something like this after "little accident". Even more of one type. One of "types" is short pin of pain in lumbar spine. I say "sh*t" quietly and this is all. 1, maybe 2 seconds of "physical stu". But second of them (types of "thrown back" pain) is more serious. Sometimes I immediately fall to the ground because of this. This why I ask about exactly mean effectos of this disavdantage.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by GWJ

Yeah, I think you're right. But I know +/- how type of pain is "thrown back". I've something like this after "little accident". Even more of one type. One of "types" is short pin of pain in lumbar spine. I say "sh*t" quietly and this is all. 1, maybe 2 seconds of "physical stu". But second of them (types of "thrown back" pain) is more serious. Sometimes I immediately fall to the ground because of this. This why I ask about exactly mean effectos of this disavdantage.

GURPS disadvantages are always really bad cases to be worth points. Thus, this is referencing the "you either fall over, or just freeze in place" type of throwing your back.

[Anaraxes]

1. I think "agony" here is just descriptive. The word is not capitalized, nor does it mention Conditions, and the text explicitly lists the penalties, which do not match the Agony Condition.

I don't see the problem with the critical failures. At Mild, you're at -5 DX (and probably -3 IQ for the next second, as for a regular failure). At Severe, you're at -6 DX and -4 IQ, plus damage, on the crit fail. Severe is worse than Mild.

2. Making a ST roll triggers the Bad Back roll, per RAW. If the ST is particularly easy, it would have modifiers that you could apply to the Bad Back roll. If the roll is normal (at -0), it doesn't matter how strong you are. You might houserule that strong characters can exert less then their full ST for some ST rolls, taking a penalty to the ST roll so as to get a bonus to the HT roll to avoid the back injury.

3. The text for Fit says "all HT rolls", so yes.

4. I don't see a mention of an additional First Aid penalty for the Severe case. It's possible that the problem is no harder to treat; just that the character suffers more from the same problem.

5. "Throw your back" -- more commonly "throw your back out" or "throw out your back" is an idiom that means to injure your back. Usually it's from some sort of strenuous activity, and might refer to anything from a sprained muscle to a slipped disc.

6. You succeeded in whatever you were trying to do -- but at the cost of hurting yourself.

7. I'd apply both the results from the critical failure on attack or defense, plus the Bad Back penalty. The Disadvantage gives you additional problems.

[GWJ]

I don't see the problem with the critical failures. At Mild, you're at -5 DX (and probably -3 IQ for the next second, as for a regular failure). At Severe, you're at -6 DX and -4 IQ, plus damage, on the crit fail. Severe is worse than Mild.

But with Mild, on critical failure you must make Will check to do anything.

2. Making a ST roll triggers the Bad Back roll, per RAW. If the ST is particularly easy, it would have modifiers that you could apply to the Bad Back roll. If the roll is normal (at -0), it doesn't matter how strong you are. You might houserule that strong characters can exert less then their full ST for some ST rolls, taking a penalty to the ST roll so as to get a bonus to the HT roll to avoid the back injury.

Ok, I like this idea :) And what about Quick Contests of ST? This is also ST roll...

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by GWJ

But with Mild, on critical failure you must make Will check to do anything.



Ok, I like this idea :) And what about Quick Contests of ST? This is also ST roll...

By RAW, you can always use less than your full ST for anything. If anything, -xST should give +yHT for your Bad Back roll. Since people who have a bad back in the real world occasionally throw out their back picking up something as simple as a couple sticks or a ball, it's fair to say that you still roll, but, something that small only fails on a 17.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by GWJ

But with Mild, on critical failure you must make Will check to do anything.

I read the text for severe as IQ is reduced by four, which should also reduce Will and Per by four also as these are based on IQ.

Ok, I like this idea :) And what about Quick Contests of ST? This is also ST roll...

A QC for ST is also an ST roll so I would think it applies.

[Ji ji]

Originally Posted by GWJ

If it is fluff - why critical failure at "Mild" roll is more serious than even critical failure at "Severe" roll?

This awe of "RAW" pertains to other games, not to GURPS. As it was stated several times by the game's authors, GURPS rules are written for living, reasoning people.

It's obvious that the Severe degree of Bad Back is a worsening of Mild. So:
- "you are in constant agony" is a conversational explaination of why you are at -4 IQ even after the next second, whereas at Mild severity the malus applies only in that turn
- on a critical failure you obviously must make a Will roll to perform any physical action, just as it was for Mild
- the First Aid roll has the same malus, no more nor less; note the wording about you receiving rest or help.

Really, there is no reason to search for copycat lists of literal conditions and rolls; GURPS books aren't written for this kind of reading.