Magic: Puissance +3 not worth it?

[OddGamer]

I just had a thought (yesterday) and spent a while working things out. The comparison between a weapon with Puissance +3 on it and a ring with ST +3 on it.

At first, I thought they'd do equal damage, but P+3 does more. So... how much more?

I looked at sw/cut weapons because those are where the biggest numbers are. It probably holds just as true with thr/imp or others. Not so much with bows, and of course not with guns.

On average, a +3 damage bonus to a sword or axe or whatever does 0.36 points more than a person with a +3 to ST. This is not what I'd consider to be a good investment.

+3 dmg costs 5000 energy to make and gives +3 to damage for that weapon alone.

+3 ST costs 4500 energy to make and gives almost the same damage increase (for ST's 20 and under), plus extra HP, plus extra lifting capacity, and the damage increase works for all weapons.

Am I missing something or is this a broken as it seems?

Note: One way to fix it would be to make the Puissance increase +1/+2/+3 per die instead of just +1/+2/+3. At low levels of ST (12 or less) this wouldn't change anything (since it'd be doing 1d anyway) but beyond that it can make a much larger difference and make the damage boost more meaningful to someone already doing quite a bit.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by OddGamer

Am I missing something or is this a broken as it seems?

Well, you're missing the fact that you can do both, and there's a cap to how much ST you can put on an item. Other than that, well, it's basically true that Puissance +3 is a lousy investment.

[OddGamer]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Well, you're missing the fact that you can do both, and there's a cap to how much ST you can put on an item. Other than that, well, it's basically true that Puissance +3 is a lousy investment.

There's a cap on puissance, too. +3. The cap ob ST is +5. And that assumes you're not allowing for greater maximums when Magery exceeds 5. But, yes, terrible investment. +1 is good (1/6th the energy of +ST), and so is +2 (1/3 +ST) but... well, it makes the weapons themselves less important.

Perhaps a change, there, to 500 energy per +1 with a normal max of +5 would be better since it's just that one weapon?

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by OddGamer

Perhaps a change, there, to 500 energy per +1 with a normal max of +5 would be better since it's just that one weapon?

Perhaps ST-enhancing items should be more expensive? Perhaps axe-wielding barbarians could benefit more from Graceful Weapon and Penetrating Weapon if they're already doing more than 1d of damage? If you want Puissance to be more common, make it cheaper or more effective. If you don't, don't. Follow your joy.

In my recent fantasy campaign, for example, I decided that there is enough of a market for cheap Invisibility potions that only last a few seconds that they are available in the big city if you have the right Contacts. These are mostly purchased by criminals to assist in planned extreme violence, for obvious reasons, and are cooked up by half-mad alchemist-wannabes who flunked out of the academy, move the lab frequently, do too much of their own Sleep-Be-Gone, and blow themselves up a lot in a deliberate parallel to crystal meth. Is this by the section on alchemy in the Magic book? Not at all, it's just logically consistent with the setting and makes me happy.

[Kromm]

Note two things:

1. Swung weapons are the worst basis of comparison here. Swing goes up by a nominal +1 per +1 to ST, so +1 to swing damage is functionally equivalent to +1 to ST, to within a small error. Thrust goes up by a nominal +1 per +2 to ST, so +1 to thrust damage is functionally equivalent to +2 to ST, to within a small error.

2. Puissance adds to damage without regard for user ST limits, whereas Might encounters the usual cap: maximum effective ST is three times the weapon's ST stat (p. B270). This matters for light weapons, mainly. For a dagger, short baton, small knife, smallsword, etc. (ST 5), you can bring at most ST 15 to bear; therefore, +5 to ST adds no damage for a ST 11+ user, +4 to ST doesn't help a ST 12+ user, and so on. For a baton, jo, jutte, large knife, main-gauche, short spear, short staff, etc. (ST 6) , the limit is ST 18, but this still makes +5 to ST kind of pointless for ST 14+, +4 to ST superfluous for ST 15+, and so on.

Where the two intersect is the market for the Puissance spell: Making small, light thrusting weapons deadlier. It's great for smallswords, daggers, and other finesse weapons. A ST 11 warrior who pays for a 7,500-energy Might item that gives +5 to ST would wield his smallsword for 1d+2 imp. If he got a 5,000-energy Puissance weapon, he'd deal 1d+3 imp and have money left to put the spell on a very fine sword that gives another +2 damage, for 1d+5 imp.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Where the two intersect is the market for the spell: Making small, light thrusting weapons deadlier. It's great for smallswords, daggers, and other finesse weapons. A ST 11 warrior who pays for a 7,500-energy Might item that gives +5 to ST will wield his smallsword for 1d+2 imp. If he got a 5,000-energy Puissance weapon, he'd deal 1d+3 imp.

It'd also be great for tiny-but-magically-gifted characters... The difference between a weapon wielded for 1d-5 Impaling and 1d-2 Impaling is pretty significant when it gets stuck in your vitals or eye...

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

It'd also be great for tiny-but-magically-gifted characters... The difference between a weapon wielded for 1d-5 Impaling and 1d-2 Impaling are pretty significant when it gets stuck in your vitals or eye...

Yes. A pixie sword is a joke at 1d-5 . . . but not when it's very fine, with Puissance 3, doing 1d. With +5 to ST, you'd just break the darn thing. GURPS Low-Tech Companion 2 will even have rules for that.

[Gurps Fan]

Originally Posted by Kromm

GURPS Low-Tech Companion 2 will even have rules for that.

Wow. We must buy that book now.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by OddGamer

There's a cap on puissance, too. +3. The cap ob ST is +5. And that assumes you're not allowing for greater maximums when Magery exceeds 5. But, yes, terrible investment. +1 is good (1/6th the energy of +ST), and so is +2 (1/3 +ST) but... well, it makes the weapons themselves less important.

Perhaps a change, there, to 500 energy per +1 with a normal max of +5 would be better since it's just that one weapon?

The caps don't affect each other. ST +5 and Puissance +3 generally HURTS.

That said, Puissance works better with thrust impaling weapons as ST based damage for these doesn't improve that fast. A thrust impale attack to the vitals with a +3 Puissance blade can be very effective.

[rosignol]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Well, you're missing the fact that you can do both, and there's a cap to how much ST you can put on an item. Other than that, well, it's basically true that Puissance +3 is a lousy investment.

ITYM "unlikely to be bothered with save by people making weapons for Royalty (not mere nobility), the champions of a major church, or someone with far more money than sense*."



*for what P+3 costs, you can get a fairly respectable company of mercenaries to follow you around. And it's also likely that anyone spending the time and money to enchant P+3 into something would ensure the thing they were enchanting was an exceptional example- i.e., Very Fine, and possibly special materials to boot. In short, a weapon fit for a King.