[GAME] Collaborative World Building Dwarven city as a start

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Apollonian

Such often changed their name and appearance regularly over the years, wishing to avoid the fate of the final God-Kings: killed when they tried to re-impose their power over Men.

Question 51

Was there meant to be a question here, about the God-kings perhaps?

[Apollonian]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Was there meant to be a question here, about the God-kings perhaps?

Fixed. Thanks.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by Apollonian

(SNIP)

Question 54
Just what is the geography around Knurlkyth like? Where are its neighbors in relation to it, and how far does its territory extend? What are the borders like? What's that ocean that Three Valleys controls access to?

The Skypeak Range of mountains runs parallel to the western shore of the continent of Greenholme, 50-100 miles inland. Older and lower than the Cascade Range of North America (and more closely resembling the Appalachians), the Skypeaks have only a few rugged peaks that rise noticeably higher than the surrounding mountains.

Mt. Glethentrob is one of them, and Grindal Peak is another. Each of them mark the edge of one of the most striking geographical features of the Skypeak Range.

At some point in the distant past (as in millions of years), a small asteroid or comet struck the coast between Mt. Glethentrob and Grindal Peak. While prospectors and naturalists have found some evidence of slightly higher iron content in the area, the most significant consequence of the impact was to pound a reasonably large gap in part of the Skypeak Range.

While the eastern end of the valley rises high and rugged, the mountains there are lower than those that rise nearer to the coast. Moreover, the Cloud River, which drains the high plateau further east, cut a canyon through the Skypeaks at that point.

The valley that lies in what had been the "bowl" of the impact zone consists of rich, alluvial soils deposited through millions of years by the Cloud River. While that river rushes wildly through the cascades and rapids of Stormwater Canyon, the river calms down and meanders gently through the valley (except for the spring floods) until it reaches the Sunset Sea.

The valley stretches out into the Sunset, where the Cloud River has created a rich (if sometimes marshy) delta region. All told, the valley is roughly 110 miles wide to the east and west (including the delta), and about 85 miles north-south.

Additionally, the last ice age left high glacial moraines that arc along the inside of the valley, from ice that pushed down from the high mountains to the north-northeast and the south-southeast. (Another moraine was deposited from mountains to the east, but the Cloud River cut a wide path through that, during the past 20,000 years). Most of the valley's lakes lie between the mountains and the moraines.

The presence of the moraines divides the valley roughly into three parts -- the areas between the mountains to the north and south and the moraines left by each, and the central (and largest, though not by much) valley through which the Cloud River flows.

Mt. Glethentrob lies at the southern end of the depression that forms the Three Valleys, about 60 miles inland from the Sunset Ocean, across some rugged and thickly forested terrain. In addition to the road that meanders north into the Kingdom of Three Valleys, a second road runs southeast about 50 miles through the valley formed by the two ridges, along the shores of Lake Vollnmust, to reach the market towns at the southern end of the Great Plateau.

The main road into the valley parallels the Cloud River, and proceeds through the middle of the Kingdom of Three Valleys to reach the deep but muddy harbor at Rushport.

Grindal Peak lies on the north end of the valley, opposite Mt. Glethentrob. While it has a trade road that links it to the northern end of the Great Plateau, the route is more difficult than Mt. Glenthrob's Vollnmust Road. As such, Knurlkyth enjoys far more traffic than Grindal Peak, which is why the raiders from the Horde of the White Eagle has made such a nuisance of themselves.

In the past, the Three Valleys served as the westernmost province of the Empire of Man that dominated the Great Plateau, which lay at western end of the open lands of the Eastern Expanse. At that time, little was known of the lands across the Sunset Sea, so the town that lay in the place currently occupied by Rushport was little more than a large fishing village.

However, in the age since the fall of the Empire of Man, explorers (and refugees and pirates) discovered that a long archipelago lay to the west, which provided a reasonably safe route across the Sunset Sea to the distant land of Oyashima. The largest island in the Stardrop Archipelago is the thickly forested Logris, about 200 miles west and currently the home of four kingdoms dueling for dominance.

Question 55

What are the names of the four kingdoms dueling for control of Logris, and what is their origin?

[Daigoro]

Question 54 - Geography Follow-up

Summarising other geographical details already mentioned (from my 13,000(!) word OneNote file):

- The mountain containing Knurlkyth has a peak some 6km above sea level. The top of the mountain is not a distinct peak but instead a large area of glacier covered terrain featuring a handful of small alpine plateaus. About 2km below the peak a large ridge attaches the peak to the Ornthrond mountain range, along this ridge runs an aqueduct and a trail leading to the other dwarven settlements in the region

- only about a hundred feet below the local terrain baseline (about 1 mile above sea level). This is because of an ancient belief among the dwarves that if they ever delve deeper than the depth of the lowest body of water in their territory

- Ornthrond Mtns & Kingdom of Craft... The three cities are scattered widely throughout the Ornthrond mountains while Drochaidùir occupies a broad valley in the center of the region.

- great forest to south

- The surplus red salt is taken by lama to Drochaidùir where it is loaded onto river boats for sale in many of the nations north of the Ornthrond mountains.

- The nearby halfling city-states, with access to purer materials, produce some of the region's higher quality glass products

- the noble house Brithnurl maintained their warrant of nobility by trading for Knurlkyth’s sulphur requirements from the Halfling cities

- begin prospecting in the deep shadowed valleys along the eastern edge of Ornthrond range

- Lake Vollnmust is the high glacial lake nestling in the upper reaches of the mountain, inside the city's defensive boundary. Cherrymuir is the lower valley lake that would drain a number of surrounding peaks.

- the town of Hurlsburg a day's travel to the south

So there's a bit of a discrepancy with the Skypeak Range and the Ornthrond Mountains. Should the Ornthronds be the local sub-range, or a different name for the Skypeaks? And I think we might have been going with the Ornthronds being around 5000-6000m, instead of around 4000m implied by being "lower than the Cascades," although (E) can answer that better.

The other detail would be the Lake Vollnmust road. We can just change that to Cherrymuir instead and it should fit.

To integrate other details, Knurlkyth could be the northernmost of the Kingdom of Craft, with the other cities scattered towards the south and away from Grindal Peak and the Three Valleys, however Drochaidùir has to connect to the north somehow.

And Cloud River appears to be a major local river draining the Great Plateau westward to the sea, while the White River must run north-south, further to the east, and divide the eastern part of the continent where the former Empires of Man were.

And we also have mention of halfling city-states nearby trading for glass and sulfur.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Question 54 - Geography Follow-up

Summarising other geographical details already mentioned (from my 13,000(!) word OneNote file):


So there's a bit of a discrepancy with the Skypeak Range and the Ornthrond Mountains. Should the Ornthronds be the local sub-range, or a different name for the Skypeaks? And I think we might have been going with the Ornthronds being around 5000-6000m, instead of around 4000m implied by being "lower than the Cascades," although (E) can answer that better.

Darn it! I thought I found all the stuff about the mountains. Clearly not, though. Go with the Ornthrond Mountains and the greater heights. That basically puts them at the height of the Himalayas, though, and that may trash the notion that the lands of the former Empire of Man lie anywhere nearby.

The rain-shadow of mountains 4-6 km high means the eastern side of the Ornthronds is a desert even more dry than the Great Basin region of North America. Given that the Great Basin is all but uninhabitable -- and certainly lacks the water and fertile soil needed for any sort of advanced society -- then Three Valleys and the two peaks are pretty isolated.

There may be a few smaller polities to the north and south, but unless we reorient things, considerably, and make the Ornthronds the product of an uplift event similar to that which created the Himalayas, then it'll have no large expanses of fertile land anywhere near it.

However, if we do make it the result of the collision of a subcontinent or something like that, then the ocean will lie nowhere nearby.

A real-world example is North America. The area between the Sierra Nevada Range and the Rocky Mountains is incredibly dry, because the rain-shadow from the Sierras prevents much rain from reaching it. Even Lake Tahoe lies in the foothills of the Sierras, and while that lake is large, it's pretty dry everywhere else.

The Mississippi Valley drains the land between the Rockies to the west, and the very low Appalachians to the east. The condensation of warm, humid air from the Gulf of Mexico as it moves north all summer long to meet cooler air from Canada and over the mountains, creates the well-watered Great Plains (and the lush forests that used to dominate the Upper Midwest).

Over to the east, the Appalachians don't have much of a rain-shadow, so the rain from Nor'easters and the occasional hurricane can reach the western side of them, too. However, the Eastern Plains of Colorado are incredibly dry, by comparison, because the Rockies shadow what little rain makes it across the Great Basin. Most of the water we get comes from winter Arctic cold fronts and the southeastern "monsoon" flows from the Gulf, in late July and August.

Maybe we pull back a bit and ask this: How are the Ornthronds oriented? If they run roughly east-west, the way the Himalayas do, then you can put the local region out on the western end of the range, and say the ocean isn't that far away -- say, 500 miles or so.

If you make them run north-south, though, then you really can't have a region to the east with enough rain to make for a large river. The rain-shadow just won't permit it.

Originally Posted by Daigoro

The other detail would be the Lake Vollnmust road. We can just change that to Cherrymuir instead and it should fit.

Man, I misinterpreted that.

Originally Posted by Daigoro

To integrate other details, Knurlkyth could be the northernmost of the Kingdom of Craft, with the other cities scattered towards the south and away from Grindal Peak and the Three Valleys, however Drochaidùir has to connect to the north somehow.

And Cloud River appears to be a major local river draining the Great Plateau westward to the sea, while the White River must run north-south, further to the east, and divide the eastern part of the continent where the former Empires of Man were.

And we also have mention of halfling city-states nearby trading for glass and sulfur.

Well, hell. At this point, just nix everything I wrote. I should've re-read the entire thread.

Sorry about that.

You do need to decide how the mountains are oriented, though; or make them a lot smaller, or put a huge body of water to the east somewhere fairly close, to make up for the vast rain shadow of the Ornthronds.

A range of mountains that high, that runs north-south, will dam up every bit of rain from any weather system that forms above any nearby ocean.

[Daigoro]

Well, the Andes are 4-6000m, with some rain shadows on their western sides. I hadn't gone as far as thinking about rain shadow though, and I think it can be handwaved with other climatic details. We might say that the eastern slopes are fed by a glacial off-melt river system, then there's some desert until you get to a Nile-like north-south river.

[Apollonian]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Well, the Andes are 4-6000m, with some rain shadows on their western sides. I hadn't gone as far as thinking about rain shadow though, and I think it can be handwaved with other climatic details. We might say that the eastern slopes are fed by a glacial off-melt river system, then there's some desert until you get to a Nile-like north-south river.

A) We probably need an actual map.
B) I had a half-formed idea of the nearby ocean being to the north, rather than the west; perhaps the Ornthronds become a chain of islands off the northern shore. The presence of a land across the western sea is good, though.
C) Are the Ornthronds volcanoes (like the Cascades) or uplift mountains (like the Himalayas)?
D) Could have a huge inland sea that's slowly drying up on the eastern side somewhere, ala the Caspian Sea. Or maybe the Ice Giants maintain a glacial stronghold far to the northeast, and the melt from their kingdom waters the eastern lands.
E) Magic happens, so some oddball geographical/geological stuff can be "a wizard did it" or "will of the gods".

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Apollonian

A) We probably need an actual map.

Volunteers?

B) I had a half-formed idea of the nearby ocean being to the north, rather than the west; perhaps the Ornthronds become a chain of islands off the northern shore. The presence of a land across the western sea is good, though.

I was picturing a coast to the north too, perhaps where the halfling cities are, but if it hasn't been posted it's not canon yet. The ocean could be north and west, if we put the region on a bulge like West Africa or west South America, or even on an Iberian Peninsula. And if 6000m mountains are unlikely on a smaller land mass like that, I'd say fantasy imagery outweighs strict realism. But a map at this point would be a definite aid.

C) Are the Ornthronds volcanoes (like the Cascades) or uplift mountains (like the Himalayas)?

The original brainstorming (starting here, separate thread) was looking at a Himalayan/Alpine analog, particularly with the data we could get for geothermal water heating where only greater depth gives sufficient heat. If it was a volcanic region, we could just have thermal springs do the same job at any arbitrary depth.

D) Could have a huge inland sea that's slowly drying up on the eastern side somewhere, ala the Caspian Sea. Or maybe the Ice Giants maintain a glacial stronghold far to the northeast, and the melt from their kingdom waters the eastern lands.
E) Magic happens, so some oddball geographical/geological stuff can be "a wizard did it" or "will of the gods".

These are ideas. In any case, there's no reason to dispose of tshiggins' description per se, just massage in a few mismatched ideas.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Well, the Andes are 4-6000m, with some rain shadows on their western sides. I hadn't gone as far as thinking about rain shadow though, and I think it can be handwaved with other climatic details. We might say that the eastern slopes are fed by a glacial off-melt river system, then there's some desert until you get to a Nile-like north-south river.

Okay, the Andes are in the Southern Hemisphere and that means prevailing winds blow the opposite direction. The three main South Atlantic Ocean currents create a counter-clockwise flow, and the winds follow suit.

By contrast, the North Pacific Ocean currents swirl clock-wise.

http://www.seos-project.eu/modules/o...s-c02-p03.html

If you want the mountains in the Southern Hemisphere, it would work well to have them as Andes-equivalents, with an ocean that behaves similarly to the South Atlantic. However, that needs to be clearly stated.

As for uplift mountains, there are only two significant ranges to use as models: the Alps and the Himalayas. The Alps top out at 4800 meters and are thus too low. In addition, they cover a small region, and are oriented east-west.

The Himalayas are the other, and they match the height requirements, but are also oriented east-west, and no ocean comes close to them. Both, of course, lie in the Northern Hemisphere, so that's where my head went.

[Daigoro]

To state my unspoken assumptions- New World crops and livestock were given in post #4, and I googled up Nanga Parbat as an impressive mountain to base ours on, so I've been vaguely picturing that sitting at the north end of somewhere Andes-like and lowered it by 1500m (to 6500m) with a surrounding terrain base of 1500m. The mountain itself is not volcanic, but the surrounding ranges could be either volcanic or orogenic. (ETA: Not to hold anyone to these, just showing what my default is until something else is defined.)

Broader climatic assumptions haven't really been addressed at all, and probably default to a vaguely European setting. We have a Technical Questions register, so a few digging into climate and continental geography could be added to it- by all means, please add!

And with that, I'll recap the current standing questions.

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Standing Questions
Technical Questions

Technical Question H: City's dimensions
How big is it?
What is its volume and floor area?
How large are Low Town, Mid Town and High Town, with what elevation between them?
How many levels do they each have, of what height?
What is the mountain's nominal diameter at those elevations?
Basically, what percentage of a mountain is it possible to hollow out horizontally and vertically before structural integrity is compromised?

Technical Question I: Demographics
What's the population then?
How does it compare to a medieval or pre-Renaissance city?
How does that work for the agricultural calculations?
What's the population density?
How many people do what jobs?
This site (Medieval Demographics) has some gaming related calculations.

Technical Question J: Dwarf Physiology
What's the life expectancy and reproductive rate of our dwarves?
How does that feed into Question I?

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General Questions

Question 18 - Trade Imports
What goods is it necessary for the city to import? And are there any foreign luxuries that are particularly in demand?
(sulphur, glass and books mentioned)

Question 19 - Major History
What else can be said about these or other historic events, why are they important or memorable?
- The living corruption (Dibbed by Daigoro... it's coming! PS aka Boglefying Ergotism, and it explains the fungal burial custom)
- The halfblood dominion
- The quickening princess
- The rise of the first empire of man (answered by TGLS)
- The fall of the high elves

Question 20 - Southern Forest
What nation shares Knurlkyth’s heavily forested southern border?

Question 22 - Dwarven Cross-breeding
Can Dwarves interbreed with other races?

Question 23 - Spiral Tunnel
Why is the spiral tunnel overbudget and delayed?
(Guild of the Plumb industrial action mentioned)

Question 24 - City's Weirdwrights
What does Knurlkyth do without a royal family to adopt Weirdwrights to directly serve the city?

Questions 27 - City's Foes
Who are the city's uncultured enemies?
(Cowerbolds given- can we get 4 more?)

Question 28(2) - Sacred Architecture
Given all that, which dwarves handle the sacred architecture/geomancy of Knurlkyth, and what secrets does that hide?

Question 30 - Guild of the Plumb's transgression
What's the historical reason for the guild losing its full status? And why are they usually denied reinstatement, especially when the Guild of Glassworkers - hardly even craftsmen!! - have a seat on the bench? And is there a compromise that could be reached to get them back to work?

Question 31 - League of the Boot's reputation
What opinion do most dwarves have about their far-trading mercantile brethren?

Question 40 - Chiselhill's Falling Star
In what land did the star fall, and why is it both wondrous and desolate?

Question 41 - Star Gods and Spy Games
What strange and alien gods is Chiselhill gradually detecting in her observations of the stars, and what do these observations have to do with her closer and closer cooperation with Knurlkyth's unofficial intelligence apparatus?

Question 45 - Three Squared
What is the truth about The Nine (a rumoured small group of fixers who square away bad luck)?

Question 46 - Mine Output
What mundane and fantastic (if any) resources are mined within the tunnels of Knurlkyth? (Gold has been mentioned)

Question 48 - Surrounding PoI's
Describe 5 of the settlements, trading posts, satellite towns, temples, martial arts centres, castles, monasteries or estates in the surrounding area.

Question 49 - City PoI's
What are 5 other important buildings, halls or spaces in the city?

Question 51 - God-Kings
Who are five of the still-living God-Kings, what are they doing, and why does one takes a particular interest in Knurlkyth?

Question 52 - Mannish Religions
What three religions led to the fall of the second Empire; which one was driven underground, and why?

Question 53 - Hidden Kingdom Cult's Crusade
Why is the Hidden Kingdom cult, which is generally considered to be a bunch of bigoted weirdos by decent dwarf-folk, making disturbing inroads into the lower classes of Knurlkyth - and flashing a lot of wealth around? (Note that Knurlkyth, being east of the White River, is not a battleground for their anti-human crusade. Yet.)

Question 55 - Kingdoms of Logris
What are the names of the four kingdoms dueling for control of Logris, and what is their origin? (Logris being the largest island in the nearby Stardrop Archipelago)

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Wow, that's 19 general questions outstanding and 3 technical- I think that's a record for these collab games.

And forgive the pithy labels I've added to the questions- they help me when I'm scanning through my notes.
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What I'm (slowly) working on:
Question H: City dimensions and physical description, with Nanga Parbat as a model.
Question 19: The Living Corruption (aka Boglefying Ergotism), Day of Crickets, Forgettings Winter and reason for dwarven spore burial.
Timeline: incorporating events mentioned (e.g. useful to know that the 2nd Empire of Man lasted until ~300 years ago) as well as a few ad-hoc additions and implied events.