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Old 11-14-2017, 12:34 PM   #11
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Default Re: Dagger + Buckler in same hand?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
My experience with it is primarily as a surprise weapon and giving you a lethal off-hand attack in close.
Fair point. Usually the interpretation I'm familiar with assumes the off-hand weapon is visible, but it would make sense for using the shield to help hide that weapon.
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:48 PM   #12
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Default Re: Dagger + Buckler in same hand?

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Fair point. Usually the interpretation I'm familiar with assumes the off-hand weapon is visible, but it would make sense for using the shield to help hide that weapon.
My principle encounter with this is from descriptions of Scottish Highlanders in the 16th century fighting with large targe shields. The drill that I learned used the axe to hook the opponent's shield as you block with yours and simultaneously close, bringing the knife point to the throat or face.

I have also experimented with a dagger held with a buckler, as in the example and in that case there's no surprise, but you still have a lethal attack with the off-hand at close range. So definitely not useless.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 11-14-2017 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:11 PM   #13
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Default Re: Dagger + Buckler in same hand?

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Rules for dagger + buckler in the same hand = Low Tech Companion 2: Weapons & Warriors, page 19, Shield-Hand Weapons.

Generally it's pointless. The primary benefit (DB 1 from the shield while using a weapon in the off-hand) is mostly cancelled out by weapon and Shield skills being at -2. The main benefit I can see to it is being able to combine the DB 1 with a Cross-Parry.
Thanks I'll check this out. I guess it's good for dodging too, the DB. Also offensive versatility (Shield Rush or impale/slash as needed) and there is also dodges/blocks being only -1 (parry is -2) from the Counterattack technique.

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I don't think the guy who is being stabbed is doing a grabbing parry, I think he's just clutching at the weapon as a pain response to being stabbed with it.
I guess it throwing off what he was doing with his hand might be covered with shock penalties, though applying the -1 to parry per 2 shock (-2 dx) might still be optional, even though they allowed grappline's -4 to give a -2 to parry in martial arts.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: Dagger + Buckler in same hand?

It is hard to think of a buckler that can't be worn as a small shield on the forearm leaving room for a dirk in principle.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:58 AM   #15
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Default Re: Dagger + Buckler in same hand?

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My principle encounter with this is from descriptions of Scottish Highlanders in the 16th century fighting with large targe shields. ...
Yep I saw historian once describe their tactic as using the targe (which I guess would be a DB1 shield) to sweep aside the English bayonet, then use the dagger held in the targe hand to stab the left arm of the musket/bayonet holder before a right chop or thrust with the sword in the right hand.

Only I never really saw what that extra and unavoidably awkward dagger stab would add to the mix that the chop with a sword doesn't?

Thing is I think the same Scots chaps also used the guige at times, so maybe that helps here?

The same historian* went on to argue this whole tactic and the highland charge in general was largely nullified by the English bayonet line changing from thrusting straight ahead (so each man thrusting at the man in front of them), to thrusting at an angle to their right (so each man thrusting at the Scotsman in front of their mate to the right of them in the line.

either way it may have been case of the historian over stating her argument**, but both seemed rather thin or at least overly simple and convenient.


*edit actually it was different historian how argued the change in bayonet drill

**TBF it was just a small bit in a TV programme

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-20-2017 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 11-15-2017, 01:02 AM   #16
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Default Re: Dagger + Buckler in same hand?

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Only I never really saw what that extra and unavoidably awkward dagger stab would add to the mix that the chop with a sword doesn't?
Firstly, against armor the sword cut isn't especially useful, secondly the manuever brings the knife inside their guard and thirdly it works if they successfully defended against your primary attack. I wish I could demonstrate it to you, it would be much easier than describing it. :(
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Old 11-15-2017, 01:16 AM   #17
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Default Re: Dagger + Buckler in same hand?

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Firstly, against armor the sword cut isn't especially useful, secondly the manuever brings the knife inside their guard and thirdly it works if they successfully defended against your primary attack. I wish I could demonstrate it to you, it would be much easier than describing it. :(
The chaps they were doing this against weren't wearing armour, and once you had moved the musket & bayonet out of line with the shield you would be inside their guard anyway and they would be open to the sword.

So the Englishman does a two handed thrust forward*, and the Scotsman used his shield to collect and then push the bayonet to the Scotsman's left, leaving the Englishmen's left and front exposed to the Scotsman's right handed sword strike.


I guess I'm thinking any dagger attack with a hand that has a shield strapped to it's arm will have to work to get around the shield as much as be on target! Obviously the smaller the shield the less of an issue it would be, so I can see it with DB0 bucklers more than DB1 shields**. Also just by their individual differences in use some weapon will be easier to use than others in this set up. For instance those Persian archers holding a bow while also having a small shield or buckler strapped to the forearm , not much of an issue at all!

*or I guess if they time it right the Scotsman doesn't wait for this and initiates and moves the bayonet aside with his shield

**Scottish targes did vary in size! (I might be tempted to make the penalty -1 for bucklers and -2 for DB1 shields, but your grip is going to be key here).

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-15-2017 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 11-15-2017, 01:48 AM   #18
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Default Re: Dagger + Buckler in same hand?

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The chaps they were doing this against weren't wearing armour, and once you had moved the musket & bayonet out of line with the shield they would have no guard anyway and would be open to the sword.
Well it is much older than the Jacobite Rebellions.
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:04 AM   #19
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Default Re: Dagger + Buckler in same hand?

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Yep I saw historian once describe their tactic as using the targe (which I guess would be a DB1 shield) to sweep aside the English bayonet, then use the dagger held in the targe hand to stab the left arm of the musket/bayonet holder before a right chop of thrust with the sword in the right hand.

Only I never really saw what that extra and unavoidably awkward dagger stab would add to the mix that the chop with a sword doesn't?

Thing is I think the same Scots chaps also used the guige at times, so maybe that helps here?

The same historian went on to argue this whole tactic and the highland charge in general was largely nullified by the English bayonet line changing from thrusting straight ahead (so each man thrusting at the man in front of them), to thrusting at an angle to their right (so each man thrusting at the Scotsman in front of their mate to the right of them in the line.

either way it may have been case of the historian over stating her argument*, but both seemed rather thin or at least overly simple and convenient.


*TBF it was just a small bit in a TV prgramme
Brawling was an inherent part of swordsmanship, and having a dirk handy is well if it comes to close.

With the rapier I know that the purpose of the dagger was to keep anybody who did get past your point from killing you. Effectively a CIWS.
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:12 AM   #20
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Default Re: Dagger + Buckler in same hand?

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Brawling was an inherent part of swordsmanship, and having a dirk handy is well if it comes to close.

With the rapier I know that the purpose of the dagger was to keep anybody who did get past your point from killing you. Effectively a CIWS.
True, and it's not having an dagger there ready if you need it, I'm questioning. Moreover in a fight with bunch of chaps with reach 1,2 bayonets and your sword is a reach 1 claymore a reach C dagger is going to be useful if you get in close. It was more the place it had in the very specific tactic as it was presented I'm not sure of.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-15-2017 at 08:06 AM.
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