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Old 11-14-2017, 02:13 PM   #31
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Question: Off-Hand Striking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Somewhat, but hand to hand combat is generally considered one strength, so lack of ambidexterity feels like a glaring weakness to me. Especially with how cheap the perk or 5 points for the full advantage is.
One strength can be narrowed down to one particular application of one particular weapon. I've seen characters built around such things.

And from a GURPS point of view, I'm not sure how lack of ambidexterity is such a big weakness. OHWT mostly seems like a cheap way to improve your parry progression. Which is certainly worth a point if 'hand-to-hand fighter' is a major part of your character's role, sure...
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:51 PM   #32
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Question: Off-Hand Striking

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Whereas that's the only experience I've had.

I never started fights, but I defended myself using my only training: wrestling (plus a few standing joint locks drilled into me by an overzealous friend). For me, throwing punches seemed like a good way to bust a hand or cut myself on teeth and get an infection, and kicks looked like a great way to fall down. Instead, I manhandled, shoving or tripping assailants into solid obstacles, hanging on, and grinding or bashing their face against the surface afterward.

These experiences taught me that most people who take a swing aren't expecting you to grab that arm and use it to pull their face into a car mirror, while most people who throw a kick aren't ready to have the leg trapped and get taken for a drag through the dirt when I hang on and take off at a run. So I worried about doing stuff like that well, not becoming a good all-around fighter.

I was almost certainly a mediocre grappler and terrible striker during that part of my life. However, I was interested in not getting beaten up, not in winning timed or scored bouts. I could imagine a PC in a game taking the same stance on things and getting perks like Dirty Fighting and Trademark Move to add bonuses that balance a lack of general skill, rather than ones like Off-Hand Training that remove penalties for someone whose skill is already respectable!
Well OK I wasn't really looking to get into who's had more real life fights when I mentioned I have had some ;-0! And actually my experiences agree with you. Most of the fights I ever had seem to end up leveraging my judo if they leveraged anything beyond just scrapping. But to be fair in terms of length of practice Judo is by far my most known thing, and more importantly most of my fights were in my late teens and early 20's at which point Judo was pretty much all I had and was fresher in my mind (well barring a smattering of half known stuff that wouldn't really amount to anything in an actual fight).

But ultimately I wasn't talking about punching over grappling, or even what's the best attack or tactic in a fight. I was only talking about using both hands (which is most definitely something I was shown and used in Judo, and now later in boxing). Something that would not seem to oppose what your describing in your fights. Since I assume the leg grabbing and face grinding not to mention your initial wrestling training was done two handed?


So I'm really not seeing that training with both hands as being contry to just not wanting to get beaten up and more to do with winning timed bouts.

But yes the tales of my fights was generally speaking grabbing, knocking them over possibly (but certainly not always) while hitting them as fast and hard as I can until an opportunity presented itself to leave the situation. Certainly not 12x 3 minutes of the sweet science!

But again I come from a judo back ground and I have now started boxing a bit, two hands it's just what you do (or it certainly what I've been shown to do). So for me the very premise of the question 'should you take time to work on your off hand at the possible expense of improving your dominant hand'. Is basically a non-sequiter because to be flippant for a moment for me fighting is a "whole body action" ;-)!


But again maybe that's just my particular background talking, and maybe when it comes to punching and grappling I'm just not that one side dominant. I also used to weight train, swim and play rugby, all two handed activities this may have helped me in this and unintentionally skewed by perception on this. So this really isn't me saying "Kromm you're wrong, and you've been fighting wrong*" or anything daft like that!

And yes I think you are right dirty fighting and trademark move seem well in keeping with reality as well


One point I would make about joint holds and grapple etc, is OK they might stop the person your holding from hitting you, but it leaves you a bit vulnerable to their mates or some onlooker who decides to get feisty. However that said there has been an evening in my life that ended with me pinning someone's arms until they sufficiently calmed down to the extent that I felt I could loosen my grip and reasonably expect them not to start up again instantly**. Fights are ultimately unpredictable messy things (even if we try and make them less so)

anyway

cheers

TD


*if we achieved our goal then by definition what ever we did worked!

**long story short, it kind of did / kind of didn't

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-15-2017 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:09 PM   #33
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Question: Off-Hand Striking

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
When boxing, I will throw left jabs, but most of my hooks and crosses are right (and certainly hit harder from the right) and I don't think that I even could throw a left upper-cut if I wanted to (the mechanics of it would confuse me).

I guess for me the training in terms of different punches with different hands is all about ideally being able to throw the right punch at the right time. So if the best punch is a left upper cut than ideally you should be setting your position in order to do that effectively (well so long as you can do so while maintaining everything else!)

However Kromm is right in a sparring match where you're both throwing a lot of (just) punches in a tightly controlled situation over a long period of time there is a lot more scope for all these different right times for different punches to be beautifully engineered or even naturally come up. And in real life they may well not and the goal is not show your range of punches, it's just finish this situation as quickly as you can.

But I would argue that given the unpredictable nature of real-life fights being adaptable to changing circumstances and having a range of tools at your disposal has value. Of course Kromm is also right there's no value in having thrown a thousand different punches once each in training, and learned none of them well enough to actually apply them effectively*. At some point being adaptable also means being able to adapt the situation you find yourself to you. It's all a balance



*to paraphrase Mr. Lee


Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I am mostly currently self teaching myself to use what is essentially a kusari-tonfa (because I now play an utterly ridiculous sport) and my right arm is now visibly larger than the left. I should probably do more general strength training...
or arm wrestling competitions!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-15-2017 at 04:07 AM.
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:16 PM   #34
Kalzazz
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default Re: Question: Off-Hand Striking

I've never been in an unarmed fight, but, all the classes I've taken have had people do the same moves, the same number of times, from both sides

So if I take a left forward stance and throw 100 right left right Palm heel strikes, then take a right forward stance and throw 100 left right left Palm heel strikes . . . I don't think it's going to specifically help use my off hand . . . just keeps the off hand from getting even worse relative to my main hand

Notably when i was working as a correctional officer, dependent on your specific task which side of the body you wore your baton on was specified by rule . . . the prison very much expected folks to be able to wield a baton in either hand
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:44 PM   #35
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Question: Off-Hand Striking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Gaming characters whose approach to combat is to try to escape it as fast as possible with a semi-desperate gambit based on a narrow set of fighting skills
....is Judo Style with the(Art) bought off to full Judo and Technique Mastery: Judo Throw. You're a one-trick pony but it's a good trick and doesn't involve treks to hidden monasteries or extensively getting your rear kicked in MMA.
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