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Old 11-14-2017, 07:52 PM   #11
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Gurps Vampire vs Hunter balance concerns.

As long as a) you're playing 4th Edition, and b) you're all built on the same number of points, I honestly wouldn't worry too much about not being able to keep up. 4th Edition, at least in my opinion, is better balanced, point-wise, than 3rd was - there are notably fewer point crocks and cheap package deals where someone with an exotic race can end up with much better stats for the same points.

So, if you're all built on the same points, that means that the vampire characters will be spending points on things like Unkillable, Injury Tolerance (Unliving), and so forth - stuff that's nice in combat, don't get me wrong, but doesn't necessarily make them incredible at dishing out the hurt. Meanwhile, you can be spending some of the (probably over 100) points they'll be spending on their vampire templates, on things like sky-high DX, Weapon Master or Trained By a Master, combat skills in the 20+ range, and so on. Not to mention, you'll probably have points free to buy stuff like Allies, Contacts, and Patrons, and you won't have to buy buckets of Charisma or social skills to overcome the inherent reaction penalties from "Oh god a vampire!", meaning you can be pretty effective there with smaller investment too.

I'd suggest you figure out how many points you have to play with, build a character, and compare it to some of your fellow players. You may be surprised at how effective you really end up.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:56 PM   #12
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Default Re: Gurps Vampire vs Hunter balance concerns.

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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
I really don't know what you just said. The GM is aware I probably won't be having any fun, but there are 5 of us and not all 5 of us are ever completely happy with any type of gurps we play. So we're trying a rotation system where we each pick one. To start, it's going to be a vampire Gurps. I just have to deal with it. I just figure being a vampire hunter would be the most enjoyable to me than being a freak. I'm just not sure how I can be competitive. He'll likely give me some special items that grant bonuses. I guess I should just count on that.
What he said, basically, is that if you've playing Vampire: The Masquerade (GURPS or not) your human PC is going to be a hideous mismatch to the group in ways that really have nothing to do with power level.

You playing a vampire hunter seems like it would make that flat-out impossible. The vampires responsible for the rest of the group's PCs being vampires would almost certainly kill you, and possibly the rest of them as well for associating with you.

You could be playing some sort of GURPS game with vampires where this doesn't hold, but...
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I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Gurps Vampire vs Hunter balance concerns.

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Couldn't you make a vampire that hates being a vampire? Trying to find a cure, and hating other vampires?
You can still be a vampire hunting vampires too.
Children of Osiris...

Note that Golconda has always been a core potential goal for kindred PCs, too.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: Gurps Vampire vs Hunter balance concerns.

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I really don't know what you just said. The GM is aware I probably won't be having any fun, but there are 5 of us and not all 5 of us are ever completely happy with any type of gurps we play. So we're trying a rotation system where we each pick one. To start, it's going to be a vampire Gurps. I just have to deal with it. I just figure being a vampire hunter would be the most enjoyable to me than being a freak. I'm just not sure how I can be competitive. He'll likely give me some special items that grant bonuses. I guess I should just count on that.
It isn't really about the "plusses" here, but about what you are able to do in the game and what kind of spotlight time you can get.

Imagine if you are playing. In the early sessions the neonates will need to learn how to hunt, they will spend a lot of time doing that, because it isn't easy without herd, and they will die if they don't. They will need to learn about the local Camarilla, and will spend a lot of time being vetted and instructed by various officers, they will need to establish a secure haven, and they will need to be especially vigilant about attacks from the traditional enemies of the Camarilla like garou and Sabbat, because this stage of their lives is when they are the most vulnerable. All the while they will be struggling to do these things without losing Humanity. What are you doing during these sessions? You can't actually help with any of this except by running errands and guard duty, which if you aren't a ghoul doesn't look good at all to the local Sherrif. This sounds like you are going to be sitting around doing very little.

They are playing a neonate game, which means the principal conflict is survival. As a powerful mortal you don't have the same threats to your survival, you eat food and sleep in a bed, the worst the sun can do to you is give you cancer years later and you don't have to worry about Humanity. The principle threat to your survival is therefore associating with neonate vampires. That seems, honestly, like a recipe for a disaster.

Another possibility is you can play a Revenant (a Wraith that has animated its own body) as they have a way to fake being vampires. We had one in the last long running vampire game I was in, and the Camarillo just thought he was a caitiff.

Really though, I would just sit this one out. Find another group, or run a game more to liking yourself. They can play VtM with four players.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 11-14-2017 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:48 PM   #15
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Default Re: Gurps Vampire vs Hunter balance concerns.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
As long as a) you're playing 4th Edition, and b) you're all built on the same number of points, I honestly wouldn't worry too much about not being able to keep up. 4th Edition, at least in my opinion, is better balanced, point-wise, than 3rd was - there are notably fewer point crocks and cheap package deals where someone with an exotic race can end up with much better stats for the same points.

So, if you're all built on the same points, that means that the vampire characters will be spending points on things like Unkillable, Injury Tolerance (Unliving), and so forth - stuff that's nice in combat, don't get me wrong, but doesn't necessarily make them incredible at dishing out the hurt. Meanwhile, you can be spending some of the (probably over 100) points they'll be spending on their vampire templates, on things like sky-high DX, Weapon Master or Trained By a Master, combat skills in the 20+ range, and so on. Not to mention, you'll probably have points free to buy stuff like Allies, Contacts, and Patrons, and you won't have to buy buckets of Charisma or social skills to overcome the inherent reaction penalties from "Oh god a vampire!", meaning you can be pretty effective there with smaller investment too.

I'd suggest you figure out how many points you have to play with, build a character, and compare it to some of your fellow players. You may be surprised at how effective you really end up.
My worry is that the books they'll be going off are the 3rd? edition Vampire the Mascquerade and World of Darkness books for their vampire skills and rulings while we're playing 4th edition rules for everything else. I'm not sure it's balanced well.

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Really though, I would just sit this one out. Find another group, or run a game more to liking yourself. They can play VtM with four players.
Sitting out seriously isn't an option. We're very tight net and they would decide not to play without me. I'm not that selfish to make that happen by deciding not to play. So I'm trying to figure out a way for me to not absolutely hate it while I still decide to play with them. I can't do ANY kind of strange being with any kind of powers. I just can't do that kind of thing. No matter what it is, I hate it.

I should note that I expect the GM to separate me from the others. I'll have my turn while they have theirs. I won't be included in their "party", if you will. I expect to be included in a group of NPC hunters, maybe bumping into the other players somewhere along the line, but we'll have to see if we fight or if we befriend each other for whatever reason my character could be convinced to do so.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:52 PM   #16
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Default Re: Gurps Vampire vs Hunter balance concerns.

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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
My worry is that the books they'll be going off are the 3rd? edition Vampire the Mascquerade and World of Darkness books for their vampire skills and rulings while we're playing 4th edition rules for everything else. I'm not sure it's balanced well.
That isn't likely to work very well.
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Sitting out seriously isn't an option. We're very tight net and they would decide not to play without me. I'm not that selfish to make that happen by deciding not to play. So I'm trying to figure out a way for me to not absolutely hate it while I still decide to play with them. I can't do ANY kind of strange being with any kind of powers. I just can't do that kind of thing. No matter what it is, I hate it.
Playing a character that is disruptive is, IMO, much worse than not playing at all.

Maybe you should try to convince them to play something else where you could not play a vampire and they can. Many of the campaign frameworks suggested in GURPS Monster Hunters definitely allow this, and that has the advantage of being all in 4e rules too.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:55 PM   #17
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Default Re: Gurps Vampire vs Hunter balance concerns.

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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
My worry is that the books they'll be going off are the 3rd? edition Vampire the Mascquerade and World of Darkness books for their vampire skills and rulings while we're playing 4th edition rules for everything else. I'm not sure it's balanced well.
You're right to be suspicious of the balance there, I think. I'd suggest to the GM to look at the GURPS Update document (which is free, I'd note), and at least convert any traits on the Vampire: The Masquerade templates to their 4th ed versions. Trying to mix 3e prices for these sorts of supernatural traits with 4th edition is kind of an exercise in imbalance, to my mind.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:04 AM   #18
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Default Re: Gurps Vampire vs Hunter balance concerns.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
You're right to be suspicious of the balance there, I think. I'd suggest to the GM to look at the GURPS Update document (which is free, I'd note), and at least convert any traits on the Vampire: The Masquerade templates to their 4th ed versions. Trying to mix 3e prices for these sorts of supernatural traits with 4th edition is kind of an exercise in imbalance, to my mind.
The costs for Disciplines wasn't well balanced even in 3e and them to 4e would unfortunately be something that Update is little help with.
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Old 11-15-2017, 01:20 AM   #19
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Default Re: Gurps Vampire vs Hunter balance concerns.

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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
The issue is a couple of our group wants to play vampire. I don't, but it's not my choice at this time. So I either don't play, which causes the group to not play, or I suck it up and try to enjoy it how I can. I do not want to play as a vampire though, so the GM has said I could have some sort of immunity to vampirism.
Can you make a mage? Using sorcery rules and whatnot, im sure you could .. match them ...
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:11 AM   #20
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Default Re: Gurps Vampire vs Hunter balance concerns.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
That isn't likely to work very well.

Playing a character that is disruptive is, IMO, much worse than not playing at all.

Maybe you should try to convince them to play something else where you could not play a vampire and they can. Many of the campaign frameworks suggested in GURPS Monster Hunters definitely allow this, and that has the advantage of being all in 4e rules too.
Why would I end up being disruptive to the campaign?

And unfortunately, there is no way they'll play anything other than the white wolf style vampire stuff, which limits us to the old books if I'm not mistaken.
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