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Old 12-30-2006, 12:51 PM   #31
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

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Originally Posted by Celjabba
yes , it is silly. And i did say that i believe it should be written as a special effect -Upon physical death, go to the hall of mandos - o pts.
I agree it's a zero point effect. It's the same 0 point effect that practically any character in a fantasy world where "souls" are real has: "when you die, your soul goes to an afterlife place". The fact that the afterlife location, for Tolkien elves, happens to be in the same physical world, isn't really that relevant.

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Originally Posted by Celjabba
But they don't die fully, and in theory, it should mean unkillable. And if the 2 glorfindel are one, it stop being a special effect-in theory.
Not really. If I'm running a fantasy campaign, and one of the characters dies, but I decide that they were so cool that the gods decide to revive them, the character doesn't need Unkillable for that to happen - all it needs is GM fiat. The benefit of Unkillable is guaranteed, quick ressurection - neither of which Tolkien elves have. So, no Unkillable.

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Originally Posted by Celjabba
They decided it was a magic ring, a ring of power, the one ring by a process of deduction and logical steps, not by any mage sight. To almost quote one of them, "okay, we have seen a ring . so what."
Note that Gandalf had previously mentioned that there were "many magic rings"; the elves probably just didn't care about magic rings in general, since half of them there could likely toss off a minor magic ring in their spare time. They wouldn't mention that they noticed its magic the same way they wouldn't mention the fact that it was gold - it wasn't really relevant.

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Originally Posted by Celjabba
I seem to remenber a couple of other, in "lost tales".
Remember, The Book of Lost Tales represents a very early version of Tolkien's mythology, before he had evolved a lot of concepts. I wouldn't trust references in Lost Tales as "canonical" unless they were backed up by other, later references.

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Originally Posted by Celjabba
This, however, i disagree. The gift of men is clearly said to be full death and short life. Pain and suffering, disease and aging are means and ways, not the gift or his effect. And i wouldn't call the gift an aberration.
An "aberration" in the sense that it was the difference from the norm, not in the sense of being an evil thing. Without the Gift of Iluvatar, men's bodies would have been like the elves, and not died from old age.

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Originally Posted by Celjabba
Besides, after the prophecy know as the curse of mandos, elves suffered from pain, suffering and weariness of body and soul, without being in any way associated to man's gift, luthien and descendant excepted.
However, even elves who didn't fall under the Doom of Mandos suffered from those sorts of things. The Avari, for example, still "faded" and grew wearied from the world, even though most had probably never even heard of the Noldor. Again, Mandos was just telling the elves what was going to happen to them, not causing it to happen. He foretold, not changed.
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Old 12-30-2006, 01:39 PM   #32
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

I’d suggest 2 perks: Sanitised Metabolism [1], and maybe “Doesn’t Scar” [1].
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Old 12-30-2006, 11:41 PM   #33
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

I am just not comfortable with elves failing a will roll and then suddenly becoming older. To me the aging is a bit more voluntary than that, if it were going to happen. Also, I anticipated the thread would eventually venture into the nature of elven mortality based on the Glorfindel phenomena. I have read and participated in several different discussions on the subject elsewhere online, and so think that a judgment call would just have to be made for the purpose of the supplement I am writing. So my plan is for Glorfindel of Rivendel and Glorfindel Balrog Slayer to be one in the same with a footnote acknowledging the controversy and suggesting alternate interpretations. I think an elf returning from the Halls of Mandos would be GM fiat - a plot device. I don't see a need to make it a game mechanic.

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They decided it was a magic ring, a ring of power, the one ring by a process of deduction and logical steps, not by any mage sight. To almost quote one of them, "okay, we have seen a ring . so what."
And i don't believe sauron put ward on it, he certainly didn't expect to loose it.
I don't think that having the One Ring play around a bit with an elves "natural" magical detection is such a bad thing. Wasn't there a long thread on what exactly the One Ring did a while back? For the ambiguity there, I would not use it as a definitive evidence against magery 0 being an improper move.
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Old 12-31-2006, 12:27 AM   #34
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

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Originally Posted by Gavynn
I am just not comfortable with elves failing a will roll and then suddenly becoming older. To me the aging is a bit more voluntary than that, if it were going to happen.
To me it seems more like a refusal to accept immortality after a while, though that would be exceedingly hard to model with the system.

You might just have to invent a new limitation for unaging. I'd even say it's a 0% limitation.
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Old 12-31-2006, 10:22 AM   #35
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

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Originally Posted by Kaldrin
To me it seems more like a refusal to accept immortality after a while, though that would be exceedingly hard to model with the system.

You might just have to invent a new limitation for unaging. I'd even say it's a 0% limitation.
I can see something like that. My bottom line is that I don't think that it feels right to force an elf to age on a failed will roll, or something like that. If the elf wants to go on living then he or she does.
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Old 12-31-2006, 03:23 PM   #36
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

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Originally Posted by NineDaysDead
I’d suggest 2 perks: Sanitised Metabolism [1], and maybe “Doesn’t Scar” [1].
I just read through the departure of the Noldor from Valinor and Manwe's (board doesn't support accented characters...) curse from the Valar says "For though Eru appointed you to die not in Ea, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be...by weapon and by torment and by grief..." [Page 95].

It goes on to say that as long as they dwell in Middle-earth away from Valinor that they would grow weary and feel the weight of regret. This implies that it's actually a very slow affliction caused by the Valar curse... thousands of years in the making. After that time they acquire a mental disadvantage which has something to do with returning to Valinor or letting themselves die.

Given the no sickness bit and that only weapons, torment or grief can kill them, I would say they have Resistant: Very Common [Metabolic Hazards] (30 pts)... perhaps with a limitation that they have to mentally keep it on and it goes away when they start to feel depressed or start to feel that weight of regret Manwe was talking about.
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Old 12-31-2006, 10:54 PM   #37
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldrin
Given the no sickness bit and that only weapons, torment or grief can kill them, I would say they have Resistant: Very Common [Metabolic Hazards] (30 pts)... perhaps with a limitation that they have to mentally keep it on and it goes away when they start to feel depressed or start to feel that weight of regret Manwe was talking about.

When I was originally creating the template, I considered the 30 point resistance, but discarded it. The reason is that the 30 point resistance also includes immunity to all poisons, and IIRC elves can be poisoned. This is why I went with the 15 point resistance that grants them immunity to all disease and environmental syndromes, but leaves them vulnerable to poison.
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Old 12-31-2006, 11:16 PM   #38
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

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Originally Posted by Gavynn
The reason is that the 30 point resistance also includes immunity to all poisons, and IIRC elves can be poisoned.
They definitely can: in the story of Eol and Maeglin, Eol tried to poison his son, but ened up poisoning his wife instead, and she died from that later.

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Originally Posted by Gavynn
This is why I went with the 15 point resistance that grants them immunity to all disease and environmental syndromes, but leaves them vulnerable to poison.
Actually, I wouldn't give them immunity to enviromental syndromes, just a high resistance. Remember, during the crossing of the Grinding Ice, many of Fingolfin's Noldor died, so obviously cold is still a danger, even if not as dangerous to them as to humans.
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Old 12-31-2006, 11:28 PM   #39
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

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Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen
Actually, I wouldn't give them immunity to enviromental syndromes, just a high resistance. Remember, during the crossing of the Grinding Ice, many of Fingolfin's Noldor died, so obviously cold is still a danger, even if not as dangerous to them as to humans.
Cold is indeed still a danger. I gave them increased temperature tolerance, although the exact level to which that needs to be given may still need to be worked out. So elves can operate in heat or cold, but could still freeze to death to be sure.
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Old 01-01-2007, 12:33 PM   #40
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

A while ago a posted some brief thoughts on how to model elven magic in GURPS
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...eer#post332041
It seems to capture the spirit of the way elves did things, at any rate.

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