Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-14-2019, 10:23 PM   #41
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
IQ 12 with 2 points in a skill has skill 12. IQ 10 with 8 points in a skill has skill 12. Thus, 2 points are as good as 8 points, or 4x faster learning.
t.
What about when each of those guys spends another 4 points? Suddenly each of them is skill 13 having put exactly the same amount of effort in from where they were at skill 12. Based on that, how can you say the good student learns four times faster?
David Johnston2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2019, 12:22 AM   #42
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Or just adopt an alternate rule that cut off defaults after your stat reaches 16. With that, the very most brilliant person on Earth could play chess, or design model railroad layouts, or keep house as well as an entry level professional or serious hobbyist, given the requisite familiarity; for anything else, they would fall a bit short of "professional" level. I think that neatly avoids the worst issues about defaults.
That does however bring up the problem of superhuman IQ or DX having no better defaults than what you get from 16. There is no good reason why further improved intellect wouldn't help for something like chess.

As a generic system, the rules should preferably produce good results even outside the human range of ability.
Andreas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2019, 12:59 AM   #43
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
That does however bring up the problem of superhuman IQ or DX having no better defaults than what you get from 16. There is no good reason why further improved intellect wouldn't help for something like chess.

As a generic system, the rules should preferably produce good results even outside the human range of ability.
GURPS already cuts off default increase at IQ or DX 20, which is just as arbitrary. Of course the rationale is that 20 is the upper limit of realistic human ability. But if you allow defaults from 20, you have an IQ 20 character with Games (Chess)-16 and Mathematics (Pure)-14, for example, without needing more than casual exposure to them through general education. It's hard to justify that as "realistic."

The alternate rule I propose is designed to be used in campaigns about realistic human characters who really ARE realistic.
__________________
Bill Stoddard

A human being should know how to live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse. Specialization is for insects.
whswhs is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2019, 01:32 AM   #44
NineDaysDead
 
NineDaysDead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

What Kromm Said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knowing your own Strength, Pyramid 83, page 16
For DX, IQ (and hence Will, and Per), and HT, it’s easy to keep the lid on: Treat the 6-to-15 range described in How to Select Basic Attributes (p. B14) as the scope of realistic ability for adult humans. To avoid implausible resistance to bleeding, poison, and so on, the GM might cap HT slightly lower; the 14 for the hardiest natural creatures (pp. B455-460) works, and even 13 is defensible. The GM may permit extraordinary people to buy one level over the usual limit if they take Unusual Background (Peak Attribute), which costs as much as a single level of that attribute; e.g., 5 points for Will or Per, 10 points for HT, or 20 points for DX or IQ. This extreme sets the “hard” limit on human ability.
__________________
Ebaying:
NineDaysDead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2019, 01:39 AM   #45
NineDaysDead
 
NineDaysDead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
GURPS already cuts off default increase at IQ or DX 20, which is just as arbitrary. Of course the rationale is that 20 is the upper limit of realistic human ability. But if you allow defaults from 20, you have an IQ 20 character with Games (Chess)-16 and Mathematics (Pure)-14, for example, without needing more than casual exposure to them through general education. It's hard to justify that as "realistic."
I think 20 is supposed to be the upper limit of cinematic human ability. Like Lex Luthor or Tony Stark, who can justify stuff like Games (Chess)-16 and Mathematics (Pure)-14, through casual exposure to them from general education.
__________________
Ebaying:
NineDaysDead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2019, 02:37 AM   #46
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
GURPS already cuts off default increase at IQ or DX 20, which is just as arbitrary. Of course the rationale is that 20 is the upper limit of realistic human ability. But if you allow defaults from 20, you have an IQ 20 character with Games (Chess)-16 and Mathematics (Pure)-14, for example, without needing more than casual exposure to them through general education. It's hard to justify that as "realistic."

The alternate rule I propose is designed to be used in campaigns about realistic human characters who really ARE realistic.
Yes, but with a different fix for defaults, you can just scrap the rule of 20. The alternative of instead lowering it to 16 makes the problem worse (while it is true that 16 is an equally arbitrary number, it would affect more characters).

Even in some campaigns with such realistic human characters, there will be other characters who have superhuman abilities.
Andreas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2019, 07:50 AM   #47
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

KYOS is a highly optional rule, not RAW. It has not even showed up once in a proper book as far as I know, just a Pyramid article. I am sure that there are plenty of things from Pyramid that everyone quietly ignores, so why does everyone seem to treat KYOS as gospel? It is just one of many ways to reduce the relative importance of attributes in GURPS.

One of the reasons why GURPS is so enjoyable is because there is a wide range in capabilities. While the majority of humans should be 8-12, and the vast majority 6-14, there are people who exist beyond that range. Realistic games avoid such outliers while cinematic games embrace them.

Now, one way to make attributes less important would be to change the basic function of skills. For example, every 4 full points that a character invests in a skill grants them a one point within an excellence pool in relation to that skill that renews every session. When using that skill, the player may spend excellence points to improve their result on a roll by one level per point spent. When opposing the use of that skill, the player may spend excellence points to worsen their opponent's results of a roll by one level per point spent.
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2019, 09:54 AM   #48
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
GURPS already cuts off default increase at IQ or DX 20, which is just as arbitrary. Of course the rationale is that 20 is the upper limit of realistic human ability.
More like the upper limit of people who don't have superpowers in a comic book. The limit of 20 is supposed to tell you where to slot Batman.
David Johnston2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2019, 11:28 AM   #49
Anders
 
Anders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

I notice that the Captain America expy in Supers has 20 in his physical stats.
__________________
"Well, here at last, dear friends, on the shores of the Sea comes the end of our fellowship in Middle-earth. Go in peace! I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil."
Anders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2019, 11:52 AM   #50
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
I notice that the Captain America expy in Supers has 20 in his physical stats.
Yes, well, he's supposed to be at the peak of human physical condition. And I certainly don't see a problem with a superhero having 20s. In fact Supers has a rule for letting a super default skills from a stat higher than 20.
__________________
Bill Stoddard

A human being should know how to live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse. Specialization is for insects.
whswhs is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
attribute

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.