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Old 02-02-2019, 12:05 AM   #11
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Fun vs Rules - When is too much fun a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
But, really, the answer is nevar. There is no wrong way to play any game (so long as everyone consents). The goal is to have fun. And if you're having fun, then you're doing it right.
I think that "fun" is too narrow a definition.

Let me compare. Many people would say that one goes to the movies for fun, and they're considered to be part of the entertainment industry. But there are other sorts of pleasure to be had from a movie. I've watched movies that were emotionally harrowing, from The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (the Swedish version, not the American one) to the latest Avengers film, the one about Thanos; I took pleasure in them, but it wasn't what I'd call "fun." Similarly movies like La Belle et la Bête or Let the Right One In, which were emotionally touching and beautifully filmed but not "fun."

Now, my feeling is that it's posslble to gain a similar range of emotional rewards from RPGs. I'm doing all those sorts of things for pleasure, but not so much for "fun" in many cases.
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Old 02-02-2019, 12:53 AM   #12
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Default Re: Fun vs Rules - When is too much fun a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I think that "fun" is too narrow a definition.
Actually, based on your movie discussion, I think you're defining 'fun' too narrowly.

I loved Låt den rätte komma* in and Män som hatar kvinnor† and had as much 'fun' watching them as I did the Marvel movies. More fun in many cases as, well, some of the Marvel movies were a bit terrible, whereas those two Swedish films were damned excellent.




* Let the Right One In (2008), in Swedish.
† The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (2009), in Swedish (the title is "Men Who Hate Women").
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Old 02-02-2019, 01:00 AM   #13
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Default Re: Fun vs Rules - When is too much fun a bad thing?

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Actually, based on your movie discussion, I think you're defining 'fun' too narrowly.

I loved Låt den rätte komma* in and Män som hatar kvinnor† and had as much 'fun' watching them as I did the Marvel movies. More fun in many cases as, well, some of the Marvel movies were a bit terrible, whereas those two Swedish films were damned excellent.
I think you're defining "fun" too broadly. Aesthetic delight can be intensely pleasurable, but I don't think it counts as "fun." Fun does not go through one like a spear.
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Old 02-02-2019, 10:50 AM   #14
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Default Re: Fun vs Rules - When is too much fun a bad thing?

I don't think there is such a thing as too much fun, but there's definitely such a thing as the wrong type of fun in a given situation. If your fun breaks the rules of the game or takes fun away from other players or the GM, then it's the wrong type of fun.

For instance, I sometimes run GURPS After the End when I have time. I make players keep track of all of their resources, since survival is an important part of the game. Handwaving stuff like the weight of your food or ammo may be more fun to some people, but it breaks the rules and is the wrong kind of fun for this particular game.

Another example would be the first game I've eve run (still AtE). I didn't know as much about the system as I do now, so I made the mistake of not making one of the players use a template (there was a few hours before everyone else showed up so we had time). He made the classic 100 Points in Guns Man. Everyone else used templates, so aside from the character being pointless at anything other than combat, he pretty much carried everyone through combat. This may be fun for the combat monster who does nothing but shoot things, but not for everyone else.
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Old 02-02-2019, 12:19 PM   #15
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Default Re: Fun vs Rules - When is too much fun a bad thing?

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If your fun breaks the rules of the game...
We're not going to agree there mate. Not ever.


If tossing the rules out the window makes the game more enjoyable for me and my group, then that's exactly what we'll do.
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Old 02-02-2019, 03:00 PM   #16
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Default Re: Fun vs Rules - When is too much fun a bad thing?

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If your fun breaks the rules of the game . . . then it's the wrong type of fun.
Fortunately for GURPS groups, one of the rules is that "rules are guidelines" and "as long as the GM is fair and consistent, he can change any number, any cost, any rule" (B486). So you don't have to worry about breaking the rules of the game by adding, changing, or ignoring any rules.

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For instance, I sometimes run GURPS After the End when I have time. I make players keep track of all of their resources, since survival is an important part of the game. Handwaving stuff like the weight of your food or ammo may be more fun to some people, but it breaks the rules and is the wrong kind of fun for this particular game.
Sounds like a good game, but I disagree with the premise that another group would be doing it "wrong" if they ignore some of the rules that your group takes seriously. The game style would be different, granted, but not better or worse in any objective sense.
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Old 02-02-2019, 03:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: Fun vs Rules - When is too much fun a bad thing?

The only problem case would be where some are having fun at the expense of others. If everybody wants a high-resolution game, you can wind up in the situation where fudging and abstraction - rather than strict rules accounting - run counter to fun.
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Old 02-02-2019, 03:52 PM   #18
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Default Re: Fun vs Rules - When is too much fun a bad thing?

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The only problem case would be where some are having fun at the expense of others. If everybody wants a high-resolution game, you can wind up in the situation where fudging and abstraction - rather than strict rules accounting - run counter to fun.
Yep. This is important...for some of us anyway.
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Old 02-02-2019, 04:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: Fun vs Rules - When is too much fun a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
Fortunately for GURPS groups, one of the rules is that "rules are guidelines" and "as long as the GM is fair and consistent, he can change any number, any cost, any rule" (B486). So you don't have to worry about breaking the rules of the game by adding, changing, or ignoring any rules.



Sounds like a good game, but I disagree with the premise that another group would be doing it "wrong" if they ignore some of the rules that your group takes seriously. The game style would be different, granted, but not better or worse in any objective sense.
I meant wrong for my particular game. As in the specific sessions I'm running. I don't think anyone is wrong for playing their game their way. Sorry about the miscommunication.

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Old 02-02-2019, 04:06 PM   #20
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Default Re: Fun vs Rules - When is too much fun a bad thing?

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We're not going to agree there mate. Not ever.


If tossing the rules out the window makes the game more enjoyable for me and my group, then that's exactly what we'll do.
So it seems I've miscommunicated a bit. The "rules of the game" to me are the rules the GM sets up, not the RAW of the book. "The game" that i was referring to is any individual session or campaign, not the system itself. So if the GM rules that you can't have a particular trait and you take it anyway, then you're going against the rules of the game. If the GM says you're using bleeding rules and the player ignores bleeding entirely, that player is going against the rules of the game.
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