Are Knockback Attacks worthwhile investments?

[AlexanderHowl]

I am just curious if people think that knockback only attacks are worthwhile for less than lethal attacks. For example, let us say that a character possesses Crushing Attack 15d (Double Knockback, +20%; Melee, C, No Parry, -35%; No Blunt Trauma, -20%; No Wounding, -50%; Variable, +5%) [15]. Is it worthwhile as a 15 CP primary attack? A 3 CP secondary attack? Or is it just a waste of points?

[Refplace]

Usually not a primary attack but definitely a nice option fora secondary.
You need a wall or something to knock them into to do damage,otherwise your just pushing them around or knocking them down.
However those last two make for good crowd control which is especially useful in GURPS where numbers can overwhelm active defenses.

[Bengt]

I guess it can be useful for a non melee character if the knockback is far enough that it takes two plus turns to get back in melee. That buys time while the rest of the party actually kills the opponents. It should really be compared to stuns, roots and other crowd control. I don't have nearly enough of a handle on all the myriad of limitations and enhancements to build some optimised such abilities though.

[ericthered]

It entirely depends on what you're up against, and what the setting is like.

double Knock-back is awesome against foes you don't really want to kill. That's setting dependent, but it comes up fairly often.

I've seen doubled knockback be very useful when enemy DR is very high, or they have other defenses like super regeneration. I played one space opera game in which DR values were routinely higher than could be reliably penetrated. The Force Riffle let hits still mean something.

When I see doubled knockback no wounding in my own builds, its usually an area attack or wall, and innate attack power limits are usually waived in such situations. They usually aren't TOO expensive either.

Lastly, doubled knockback is just plain fun. There is something hilarious about knocking people back 4 yards and off their feet. Its also in genre for a lot of super hero and magical settings.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Refplace

You need a wall or something to knock them into to do damage,otherwise your just pushing them around or knocking them down.

Can't knocking someone down do damage?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Plane

Can't knocking someone down do damage?

If they are just knocked over than typically no, they need to be knocked into something. Typically you hit them from a horizontal direction expending most of the energy that way, if they do not hit something they have to roll to stay on thier feet.
If you attack from above your slamming them into the ground so can do damage that way. Likewise if you knock them up and they fall down. Though thats easier to counter, such as Acrobatics or Catfall.

[Plane]

You could probably knock them off the edge of something. Unless you are on an infinite flat plane, the ground will either slope up (ascending stairs are like walls the height of your feet) or down (descending stairs are like falls the height of your feet)

[AlexanderHowl]

Well, a 15d double knockback attack will do an average of 105 points of knockback damage, which translates to 13 yards of knockback. 13 yards of knockback up results in 13 yards of falling down, which is velocity 17, dealing 3d+1 crushing damage if hitting a hard surface. When you do the math, it also takes three seconds to go up and fall back down, so it is not a bad way to take someone temporarily out of the fight.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Plane

You could probably knock them off the edge of something. Unless you are on an infinite flat plane, the ground will either slope up (ascending stairs are like walls the height of your feet) or down (descending stairs are like falls the height of your feet)

Your example is simply below the resolution of the game.

The plane doesn't have to be infinitely flat, just a reasonable flat area. Most of us deal with those every day. Fighting a ground-level, or inside a building would be adequate, unless you're doing enough damage to inflict dozens or hundreds (or more) hexes of knockback. For four hexes of KB, on a person with 10 HP, that would be 1d-2 damage, or 1d-1 if they hit something hard and immovable (like a wall). Even a 10 HP person getting knocked back one hex, into a wall, would take 1d-3 damage.

But, fighting in a park, or on a street provides plenty of open area for people to be knocked around without being an infinite plane, nor stairs to worry about.

At best, your example of slightly changing ground elevation would be ignored, while at worst, it would only count as difficult terrain.

Knocking someone down a flight of stairs, however, would be a fall. Adding the velocity of the fall to the amount knocked back to determine the damage inflicted.

[Black Leviathan]

On a soft grassy field, it's ok, nothing remarkable. Somewhere near the edge of a massive canyon or a bridge over a yawning chasm.. it's not just horrible, it's fun as hell.