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Old 07-15-2016, 09:00 PM   #111
safisher
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Default Re: Swords and plate

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Originally Posted by ArmoredSaint View Post
I'd certainly be a lot more comfortable accepting your assertions
Oh, please be honest. You'll never accept them. You will smear, insult, denigrate etc. until the cows come home.

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once I had read and assessed for myself the primary sources that have been referenced in this discussion in the original languages.
The ever moving goal post hue and cry of "evidence" has continued unabated. Just give me some proof! Done.
Give me some more! Done.
More I say! Done.
More...in the original language!...with illustrations! etc...with period artifacts!
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Old 07-15-2016, 09:02 PM   #112
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Default Re: Swords and plate

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
You seem to be happy to err on the side of GURPS basic RAW, and I would rather err on the side of the LT patch.
Fair enough.
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Old 07-16-2016, 12:28 AM   #113
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Default Re: Swords and plate

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I assume that the soldiers in the War of the Roses were armed with the weapons necessary for the job at hand. The fought in plate, and/or against, with weapons like the pollaxe.
The bodies recovered at Towton were killed afterwards, not during the fighting. Wisby is a better example of injuries inflicted during a battle. This is what I have from Thordeman's analysis but it is from notes I took years ago. I'd like to be corrected if it is wrong.

Tibia injuries: 98
Skull injuries: 97
Forearm injuries: 69
Upper arm injuries: 21
Torso injuries: 0
Thigh injuries: 0

Either torso armour was invulnerable to these weapons or nobody ever aimed at the torso.
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Old 07-16-2016, 12:37 AM   #114
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Default Re: Swords and plate

If we are going to examine sources for weapons penetrating armour then we need to limit ourselves to fight manuals and eye witness accounts. Not assumptions made by historians such as Oakeshott and Oman.
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Old 07-16-2016, 02:25 AM   #115
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Default Re: Swords and plate

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A more realistic take would probably be to give armor different DRs for all types of attack, like in Harnmaster. I attempted this, but it proved to be a major pain-in-the-neck to keep up with at the gaming table so I dropped that after two sessions.

This is what I do, simply because the precedent is already set in GURPS for specific combinations of armour type and injury type already (e.g mail vs. Cr), and it gives more realistic and differentiated results.


Now I haven't found it that problematic, but that is purely a matter of personal preference / tolerance for complexity.


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DR being like it is, without Edge Protection, is certainly quicker and easier, and that has its advantages when you're running a game for six to eight other people.
That is certainly true, also for some game types it's just not worth worrying about anyway!
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Old 07-16-2016, 02:42 AM   #116
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If we are going to examine sources for weapons penetrating armour then we need to limit ourselves to fight manuals and eye witness accounts. Not assumptions made by historians such as Oakeshott and Oman.
Good point. If nothing else what is accepted historical wisdom often changes. Look at how the perceived capabilities of the English longbow has changed down the years.

Historical interpretation is always going to fraught with potential issues, especially when it come to inferring facts on what is pretty esoteric and tangential stuff like how to model armour in an role-playing game.

That obviously doesn't make it useless but it does mean we have to take that into account.

If nothing else I'm sure that for every historical cite of blades chopping though plate, they are plenty of cites of armour withstanding such blows (in fact you've provided plenty of such)


Also as I said earlier if we didn't have experimental data* to look at too then we'd be forced to rely solely on historical interpretation, but we do have some data. I'm always going to weigh that quite heavily so long as I can see the experimental assumptions and set up (possibly my own background bias at work there of course).



*or even just knowing the mechanics of blade cutting through various materials

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Old 07-16-2016, 03:40 AM   #117
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Default Re: Swords and plate

Another thought, while GURPS has armour piercing as an option for impaling weapons (Low tech companion 2, pg 12) their may be a case to be made that some cutting weapons have an armour piercing effect even if it does not fully justify a (2) armour divisor.

I recall reading that a curved blade (convex) works best when no armour is present, Halberds include straight blades and even concave cutting edges.

When cutting sheet steel a slasher (slingblade(?) concave cutting surface with a protrusion/beak at the top of the blade) works quite well as it seems to have some armour piercing properties.
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Old 07-16-2016, 04:21 AM   #118
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Curved blades are no more effective against flesh than straight blades. The main benefit of a curved blade seems to be that it is easier to manipulate from horseback.
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Old 07-16-2016, 04:45 AM   #119
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Default Re: Swords and plate

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Another thought, while GURPS has armour piercing as an option for impaling weapons (Low tech companion 2, pg 12) their may be a case to be made that some cutting weapons have an armour piercing effect even if it does not fully justify a (2) armour divisor.

I recall reading that a curved blade (convex) works best when no armour is present, Halberds include straight blades and even concave cutting edges.

When cutting sheet steel a slasher (slingblade(?) concave cutting surface with a protrusion/beak at the top of the blade) works quite well as it seems to have some armour piercing properties.
I'm sure the configuration of the blade will make a difference in tools designed to cut through sheet metal. It will probably come down to controlling what bit of the blade interacts with the sheet and when for maximising the force being applied. It's just what makes a different in tools that are designed to do this may not end up making a measurably relevant difference in tools that aren't. You have to look at the force and the way such sheet metal cutters work at.

(Generally speaking they involve a lot of force over a relatively long period to make their cuts, i.e not very similar to hand held weapons blows in combat).

A vaguely similar thing is bolt cutters. Now that's a hand held device that use human muscle input to cut through metal, but try applying that in combat. It does what it does via specific mechanical advantage (and material properties) so it can cut through pretty thick and tough material. But again if you actually look at how a modern bolt cutter actually does this, you see how fast swung historical blades in combat rely on different mechanics to inflict their damage.


Another more powerful example is things like "jaws of life". Big steel works use (or certainly used to) great big steam or electric driven cutting blades to cut metal of quite considerable thickness*.

Put it another way, I've personally used heavy duty scissors or snips to cut through pretty light metal. So I'm well aware that in the right circumstances yes in abstract blades can cut metal. But it how it's done that matters most. Sitting there and slowing putting force into a scissored blades onto carefully placed metal and working my way through it, is a different thing from swinging such blades at the same piece of metal in combat.

There's another point to make here a lot of systems for cutting through metal involve cutting from the edge in, this makes a difference compared to trying to initially push a blade into a sheet. The edge being more susceptible to certain forces.


EDIT: actually Douglas Cole covers some of this in post 87 I realise


*there's a story that's used to illustrate how the different manufacturing ethos for tank construction in WW2 partially led to different output rates. So Germany would do 'X' , but the US would do 'Y', but the USSR would do 'Z', blah blah blah.

But the relevant point here was one of the things the USSR did was cut the turret hole out of the hull plate by using industrial snips (obviously on a big scale). It wasn't pretty, but it was quick, snip, snip snip, like making a rushed costume for you kids "blanket, arm holes, head hole, belt, off you go" kind of thing!

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Old 07-16-2016, 04:57 AM   #120
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Default Re: Swords and plate

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I'm sure the configuration of the blade will make a difference, it will probably come down to controlling what bit of the blade interacts with the sheet and when for maximising the force being applied. It's just you have to look at the way and the forces such sheet metal cutters work at.

(Generally speaking they involve a lot of force over a relatively long period to make their cuts, i.e not very similar to hand held weapons blows in combat).
I should have made myself a bit more clear, I have used a "slasher" (scrub clearing implement akin to a very heavy machete on an axe handle) to cut sheet metal* (albeit predominantly various gauges of corrugated iron) Like you said with the USSR approach it's not pretty but it is fast.

*also used a spade. Demolition experience plus used the same technique when cutting large amounts of corrugated iron while building flood gates.
On a side note it is possible to get a reasonably tidy finish if you start the cut with a slasher/axe/spade and then tear the metal with a guide pressed tightly in place

Edit
Slasher though the ones I have used have a smaller "beak" about 1/4 the size.

Edit 2
An Irish single edged slasher to be exact
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