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Old 06-13-2018, 06:11 AM   #3361
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

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Originally Posted by Phil Masters View Post
The aesthetic problem with this is that the Holy Alliance was, by definition, an alliance of reactionary religious conservatives. Those tend to be bad candidates for "exploits high-tech wonder-weapons to blow holes in the balance of power", especially before the 20th century. I mean, there's no law against it, it could happen somehow -- but giving your "let's go back to the good old days of the 15th century" goons strike airships and submarine freighters is kind of mixing your symbols.


So the basic concept here is "Britain completely bollixes up its core 19th century foreign policy, and faces the exact nightmare that it spend all those decades working to block in reality". Which is fair enough.

Personally, I'd incline to make this version of the Holy Alliance a very cynical Prussian scheme. Of the three, they were the dynamic, efficient, progressive-according-to-their-own-lights mob; if they bafflegabbed the other two into providing them with cannon fodder, resources, and a secure eastern border, under a scrim of pseudo-religious doubletalk, they could be trouble. The diplomatic solution would then consist of the British jumping up and down and yelling "You're being scammed!" at the Russians and Austrians.
Agreed, the Holy Alliance is a pact of reactionaries, with a possible exception of Prussia. Yes, this senario assumes that the bitter lessons learned durring the War of the American Revolution are totally forgotten. It isn't a realistic senario on several levels. The main exception being the question of how to invade Britain in the period between the fall of Napoleon and the coronation of Victoria. It would have taken an alliance of the whole of Europe to pull it off.

I like your idea about Prussia pulling the strings. If we have Centrum deluded into thinking they're pulling Prussia's strings, it could add layers of confusion to the game.
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Old 06-13-2018, 09:24 AM   #3362
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Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
Agreed, the Holy Alliance is a pact of reactionaries, with a possible exception of Prussia. Yes, this senario assumes that the bitter lessons learned durring the War of the American Revolution are totally forgotten. It isn't a realistic senario on several levels. The main exception being the question of how to invade Britain in the period between the fall of Napoleon and the coronation of Victoria. It would have taken an alliance of the whole of Europe to pull it off.

I like your idea about Prussia pulling the strings. If we have Centrum deluded into thinking they're pulling Prussia's strings, it could add layers of confusion to the game.
If you can somehow have Britain occupy France - which is serious space bat territory - you then have a place that can be invaded and a land war that the Holy Alliance can fight. The problem here is that (as countless playthroughs of Europa Universalis have taught me) Britain is a maritime power, the Holy Alliance is composed of land powers, and trying to fight on the other guy's turf is a losing strategy. And everyone knows it! Somehow, you have to get the Holy Alliance a maritime power or make Britain need to fight a land war.

Making the Alliance a maritime power is quite tricky, especially as long as the British hold Gibraltar. So... ok, going into space bat territory... Britain and France somehow come to an accord and a close alliance. This probably has to happen directly as a result of the Napoleonic wars, so let's say that instead of fully restoring the Bourbons, the French adopt a system similar to the British, with parliament balancing a fairly strong (and perhaps less incompetent) monarch. Maybe Napoleon II? This, of course, incenses the Holy Alliance, and threatens Spain - which (again through Space Bat influence) actually gets its naval act together. So now the Holy Alliance of Russia, Prussia, Austria, and Spain face off against the somewhat democratic Anglo-French Alliance in a cold war that's likely to go hot soonish. Everyone's still exhausted from the Napoleonic Wars - it's only been twenty years - but tensions are rising. Meanwhile, the USA is happily trading with one and all, and the Spanish American colonies are getting restive.

Downside, aside from all the Space Bat stuff, is that it looks an awful lot like WWI verson 0.5. Or maybe that's an up side.
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:56 AM   #3363
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Making the Alliance a maritime power is quite tricky, especially as long as the British hold Gibraltar.
The reason for this is simple, but not always obvious. Land powers have to maintain large armies, to deter invasion. That means they can't afford large fleets in addition to their armies.

The British historically spent nearly all their military budget on their navy. The large British armies of WWI and WWII were quite unusual. The British calculation was that a power would have to dominate all of Europe to be able to afford a large enough fleet to beat the Royal Navy. So they made sure that nobody ever dominated all of Europe, and treated preventing that as a matter of national survival.

The good feature of Gibraltar is that it lets you impede Mediterranean fleets (half of Spain, half of France, Italy, Austria. Turkey, Russian Black Sea fleet) from joining forces with Atlantic fleets ((half of Spain, half of France, Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia, Russian Baltic and Northern fleets).
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:29 PM   #3364
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Britain is a maritime power, the Holy Alliance is composed of land powers, and trying to fight on the other guy's turf is a losing strategy. And everyone knows it!
Britain is by far the strongest maritime power but the other powers don't lack maritime resources. That's part of why you need so many powers to beat Britain.

Quote:
Making the Alliance a maritime power is quite tricky, especially as long as the British hold Gibraltar.
No, the issue was always getting the Holy Alliance to pull together.

Quote:
Everyone's still exhausted from the Napoleonic Wars - it's only been twenty years - but tensions are rising. Meanwhile, the USA is happily trading with one and all, and the Spanish American colonies are getting restive.
Spanish America left in the 1820's. In this scenario, Spain is looking to reconquer her colonies. And as romantic as the Holy Alliance was, they knew invading South America would be easier than invading the USA or an outraged Canada. So that's where they'd strike first.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:39 PM   #3365
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Britain is by far the strongest maritime power but the other powers don't lack maritime resources. That's part of why you need so many powers to beat Britain.

No, the issue was always getting the Holy Alliance to pull together.

If there is a power that can challenge Britain on the seas on this point, its France. They can't win, but they're big enough for the other powers to rally around.



Once again, France is the key to defeating Britain. If France can be strong-armed into the alliance, its odds look good.
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Old 06-13-2018, 04:23 PM   #3366
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If there is a power that can challenge Britain on the seas on this point, its France. They can't win, but they're big enough for the other powers to rally around.



Once again, France is the key to defeating Britain. If France can be strong-armed into the alliance, its odds look good.
The Bourbons had no love of Britain. If they thought the Holy Alliance could both secure the throne of France for them and humiliate Britain, they'd go all in, but only if the thought they could and would do what they said. In Homeline's history, the French kings knew they had no back up. Following Phill Masters' suggestion, have Prussia pulling the strings and the French kings realising they've got an ally worth having, then Britain has trouble.

More importantly, the Reform Bill of 1832 had many enemies in Britain. Including the Queen and the Princess of Wales' mother. The elites, unlike the people, would be divided and of limited loyalty to Britain.
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:18 AM   #3367
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Try this idea, Travelers from a parallel Earth in an inaccessible quantum land in this Q6 world around 4,000 BCE. The travelers think they've escaped from a brutal totalitarian dictatorship into their distant past. The lost travelers vote to start humanity on a better path by refounding society in a better form.

Fifty years after their crash the city they founded is a vibrant democracy with a strong economy, the local Tech Level is functionally TL5 with small amounts of higher Tech level items around.

Two hundred years after the landing, Spain, France, Morocco, Italy, and Scilly, are a vibrant growing democratic nation functioning at TL8, and planning to overwrite the horrors of their history with a universal democracy. Meanwhile, other lost travelers from a nearby Q6 world have discovered this world also believing they've traveled into their past.

As far as the second group of travelers are concerned, the first group is trying to wipe them out. The group that got to this quantum first sees the second group as the unwitting dupes of the dictators the first group fled from. War is now in bloom.

Homeline has just found this world with two groups of unwitting Crosstime travelers. Handle this hot potato without massive slaughter and brutality, or face a political backlash on Homeline.

Note: Either failing to solve the problem or slaughtering massive numbers of people, will cause massive political issues for your group.
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:43 AM   #3368
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Homeline has just found this world with two group of unwitting Crosstime travelers. Handle this hot potato without massive slaughter and brutality, or face a political backlash on Homeline.
Well, this would be easy if you could tell the two sides what's really going on, and that there are plenty more worlds. This is one of the situations where Infinity's policy on The Secret really causes them trouble.

How large were the groups of crosstimers? Presumably the first group have been culturally uplifting the Neolithic farmers who were most of the natives when they arrived?

How did the second group manage their crosstime travel? Simply providing them with the means to move "further into the past" seems like the easiest solution.
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:52 AM   #3369
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Well, this would be easy if you could tell the two sides what's really going on, and that there are plenty more worlds. .
Honestly, no it wouldn't. If the second group was a small recently arrived group who hadn't established their own colony yet they could simply be removed without need to tell them and especially the first comers much of anything. But once they've settled in they don't care what other worlds there are. This is their world.
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Old 06-16-2018, 02:45 PM   #3370
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Except for the fact that the first group is now at the tech level where building parachronics is practical. Tell them that they actually traveled to another world and they might decide to go wipe out the brutal dictatorship they escaped from. If the second group and the first group talk to each other long enough, they'll figure this out in short order. Might as well wipe them out and blame Centrum.
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