Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-23-2010, 08:15 AM   #31
Fnugus
 
Fnugus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Odense, Denmark (Northern Europe)
Default Re: Items as allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksmith View Post
Useful, but in this specific case it seems a Innate attack will do what he wants better than ally. It is not even a gadget as it is indestructable and he can summon it to his hand, so no taking it with a contest of dx or something for stealable and no breakable either.
True. But taking innate attacks to achieve the same results will be more costly in points than what he's done with the ally, but that's only fair. :)
Fnugus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 09:49 AM   #32
blacksmith
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default Re: Items as allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnugus View Post
True. But taking innate attacks to achieve the same results will be more costly in points than what he's done with the ally, but that's only fair. :)
Hey, no reason to let he get away with blatant munchkinism. What he said he wanted is easily done very directly, so there is no reason to go through this more difficult and potentially abusable method.

I would require an ally to have some degree of independent action in some fashion. An intelligent sword that talks would count.
blacksmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 10:27 AM   #33
DemiBenson
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Boston, Hub of the Universe!
Default Re: Items as allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnugus View Post
True. But taking innate attacks to achieve the same results will be more costly in points than what he's done with the ally, but that's only fair. :)
So slam him with all the downsides of having an Ally: the sword needs CM (Controls) and all the other ads/perks that were mentioned; offer to make the sword a Dependent as well, then if he loses the sword, he gets no experience for the session; the Ally isn't a puppet, so some times it doesn't do what the character wants - in fact, the GM controls the Ally, and gets to decide when the Duplication occurs and when the sword uses its own Innate Attack; the sword needs to make an IQ roll to determine which foe to attack (which always fails because it has IQ 0); even if you're feeling generous, the sword needs to make a skill roll (based on DX) to successfully attack with its Innate Attack.

Or just use the best excuse: "That's blatant munchkinism, so you can't do it"
__________________
Demi Benson
DemiBenson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 11:03 AM   #34
vitruvian
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Items as allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ectropy View Post
So slam him with all the downsides of having an Ally: the sword needs CM (Controls) and all the other ads/perks that were mentioned; offer to make the sword a Dependent as well, then if he loses the sword, he gets no experience for the session; the Ally isn't a puppet, so some times it doesn't do what the character wants - in fact, the GM controls the Ally, and gets to decide when the Duplication occurs and when the sword uses its own Innate Attack; the sword needs to make an IQ roll to determine which foe to attack (which always fails because it has IQ 0); even if you're feeling generous, the sword needs to make a skill roll (based on DX) to successfully attack with its Innate Attack.

Or just use the best excuse: "That's blatant munchkinism, so you can't do it"
Some of these are mutually contradictory - if the sword in fact has CM (Controls) representing the grip, then the wielder will be able to use its abilities with those Controls.
vitruvian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 11:34 AM   #35
Not another shrubbery
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Items as allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksmith
Why? It needs some kind of HP and maybe HT but ST? if it can't move why does it have ST?
Conceptually, 0 ST implies either some kind of non-corporeal form or something extremely small, which cannot support any encumbrance other than its own mass. Anything solid, regardless of whether or not it has mobility, should have both HP and ST.

Based on my reading of FAQ 3.1.5 and past comments related to it.
Not another shrubbery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 11:46 AM   #36
vitruvian
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Items as allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
Conceptually, 0 ST implies either some kind of non-corporeal form or something extremely small, which cannot support any encumbrance other than its own mass. Anything solid, regardless of whether or not it has mobility, should have both HP and ST.

Based on my reading of FAQ 3.1.5 and past comments related to it.
I would have thought that inanimate objects had HP but not ST, by virtue of the fact that ST is not usually listed for such items unless they're vehicles with some standard load they can carry. On the other hand, I can see your point - would that mean that any load bearing or rigid item (walls, columns, cables, swords, steps, etc.) needs a ST stat with BL and BL x 10 representing the maximum load before they'll bend or break due to a weight being placed on them?
vitruvian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 11:58 AM   #37
Not another shrubbery
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Items as allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian
I would have thought that inanimate objects had HP but not ST, by virtue of the fact that ST is not usually listed for such items unless they're vehicles with some standard load they can carry. On the other hand, I can see your point - would that mean that any load bearing or rigid item (walls, columns, cables, swords, steps, etc.) needs a ST stat with BL and BL x 10 representing the maximum load before they'll bend or break due to a weight being placed on them?
By my interpretation, such things would usually have ST = HP, which hopefully is enough to account for load-bearing. Note that this is just my interpretation... I am not confident in how it would be viewed officially, since it runs counter to the assumptions in Thaumatology (Items as Characters, p118).
Not another shrubbery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 12:03 PM   #38
PK
 
PK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum
Default Re: Items as allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
I would have thought that inanimate objects had HP but not ST, by virtue of the fact that ST is not usually listed for such items unless they're vehicles with some standard load they can carry.
This is correct. A sword has ST 0, because it can't "carry a load" at all. Try it. Set a sword down, place a book on it, and ask the sword to carry it across the room. You'll find that it doesn't do well. :)

And yes, this is a function of having Move 0 as well, but it doesn't change the fact that ST requires the ability to lift and carry a load under your own power. If your sword had ST 10, then even if it had Move 0 and No Manipulators, it could still (for example) shove something nearby.

Quote:
On the other hand, I can see your point - would that mean that any load bearing or rigid item (walls, columns, cables, swords, steps, etc.) needs a ST stat with BL and BL x 10 representing the maximum load before they'll bend or break due to a weight being placed on them?
No, for an inanimate object, that'd be a function of HP and HT, if anything.

And frankly, if you're buying an Ally with ST 0, DX 0, IQ 0, and Move 0, I have to really question how this is an Ally. If it's just an enchanted sword, that's an Innate Attack with gadget limitations. (And it's not any cheaper to buy as an Ally, because the GM should still require you to buy the Innate Attack with the Granted by Familiar limitation -- otherwise, you'd be using the Ally advantage to try to get around the cost of an ability.)
__________________
Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Twitter) (LJ)

MyGURPS: My house rules and GURPS resources.

#SJGamesLive: I answered questions about GURPS After the End and more!
{Watch Video} - {Read Transcript}
PK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 12:35 PM   #39
vitruvian
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Items as allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
And frankly, if you're buying an Ally with ST 0, DX 0, IQ 0, and Move 0, I have to really question how this is an Ally. If it's just an enchanted sword, that's an Innate Attack with gadget limitations. (And it's not any cheaper to buy as an Ally, because the GM should still require you to buy the Innate Attack with the Granted by Familiar limitation -- otherwise, you'd be using the Ally advantage to try to get around the cost of an ability.)
Well, as to the first, I wouldn't do so. If the sword had neither a mind of its own nor any means to move about and act on its own, I wouldn't ask for it as an Ally as a player nor allow it as a GM.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that the Granted by Familiar thing applies to all Allies; after all, if your Ally is a vehicle with Payload and DR and Enhanced Move, I'd expect you to be able to get into said vehicle and be protected by the DR and get moved around at the vehicle's movement rate without also buying the DR and Enhanced Move with the limitation, or even use a mecha's ST or built-in weaponry. For Allies that aren't vehicles or acting on their own, though, yeah, I'd require the use of that construct.
vitruvian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 10:56 AM   #40
Not another shrubbery
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Items as allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
This is correct. A sword has ST 0, because it can't "carry a load" at all. Try it. Set a sword down, place a book on it, and ask the sword to carry it across the room. You'll find that it doesn't do well. :)
Cut down by an appeal to ridicule *rolleyes grin*
Quote:
And yes, this is a function of having Move 0 as well, but it doesn't change the fact that ST requires the ability to lift and carry a load under your own power. If your sword had ST 10, then even if it had Move 0 and No Manipulators, it could still (for example) shove something nearby.
I would say that the lack of movement pretty much covers the inability to carry, lift, or move things. Items like a sword do not just have Move 0, but also something like No Legs(Portable) with a paralysis kicker. ST 0 is not a good model for that (not by itself, AAR), because it still allows for self-movement. And the fact that it helps to show load-bearing capacity seems to indicate potential utility in retaining ST as a characteristic for common objects.
Not another shrubbery is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
allies, gear

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.