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Old 06-06-2023, 03:42 AM   #1
Nedorus
 
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Default Thaumatology Sorcery prohibitively expensive [Rant]

I'm currently working on a translation of spells from that cyberpunk game (where one should never trust an Elf).

I want to use the 'magic as powers' approach or more specifically a slightly adapted version of Thaumatology: Sorcery (e.g. using QN/QP)

I'm getting exceedingly frustrated with the cost of certain spells and how they compare.

I'm creating an illusionist mage wanting to cast ‘invisibility’ (as listed here). She needs to spend at least 84 - 92 points on her Sorcerous Empowerment. As limitations don't do anything for reducing the minimum cost needed (you just need more levels of the trait to fulfill the prerequisite!) this will usually be 100 points just for the "prerequisite". Some points in Sorcery Talent and / or Innate Attack skill to reliably 'hit' a target are necessary just as with the combat mage.

Now let's take a look at a mage with 'Invisibility' using 'magic as skills' from Magic.
In order to cast 'Invisibility' in 1 sec (as this is the time it takes to repeat a sorcery spell) you need to have it at level 30+. This will also reduce the FP cost to 1 (0 to maintain).
You'll need some prerequisite spells (6 incl. Blur) but you can limit yourself to "one college" -40%. If you find another limitation worth -20% it's more cost effective to level up your Magery (ok, the GM may not approve above level 3 or so). I'd suggest 'Solitary' for -40% as this is really not much of a limitation at the exceedingly high skill levels. This brings down the cost of magery 21 to 47 points. For a meager 2 Points you will now have 'Invisibility at level 30 (!). The 5 yard distance to your target won't matter much at that level (~_^)

Six more points into the prerequisite spells (which will each end up at level 29!) and you have a very powerful, super fast and cheap Invisibility spell (plus extras). HALF the cost of the (less powerful) sorcery version.

Why less powerful?
1. You cannot end the spell prematurely
2. Equipment only goes invisible up to medium encumbrance
3. You are less versatile as the "classic" mage-version has six additional spells.

So as it stands it's 100+ points vs. 55 points for (mostly) the same thing.

Also, I can easily create a combat mage with some rather powerful combat spells (comparable to an assault rifle) by selecting something like 3 levels of Sorcery Empowerment for a total of 40 points and adding a fire-damage-based Innate Attack at level 10-11 (depending on the exact limitations). This "Firebolt" (think missile, not 'Ball') is leveled and costs about 4 points per level, allowing me to cast spells at a higher-than-learned level (realistically not more than 1-2 levels higher though). This would push the damage to a whopping 12d-13d...

[End of Rant]

Thoughts and improvements welcome ...
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Old 06-06-2023, 03:59 AM   #2
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Default Re: Thaumatology Sorcery prohibitively expensive [Rant]

As I understand it, this is a consequence of "magic as skills" never having been designed to be directly comparable to using Advantages. Which, for some, is a negative, as it's harder to control balance. Therefore, you can't compare the two based on point costs: you just have to chose which one you want based on personal preference.
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Old 06-06-2023, 06:30 AM   #3
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Default Re: Thaumatology Sorcery prohibitively expensive [Rant]

Magery 21 would never be allowed in any game I have ever played in or any game I would run. Even if it was a Supers game.

Sorcery cost so much more because, as mentioned already, magic as skills were not designed to be compared to advantages.

especially if you allow such munchkinism as Magery 21! You are just ASKING the player to break everything.

Magery limited to 4 is there for a reason, The highest the books ever suggest is 6 with U.B. thrown in. That changes everything you put:

Magery 4 [40] OR [8] limited to one college with solarity.

Assuming IQ 10:

Invisibility (H) IQ+20 [68]
6 other spells at 1pt each at eaither (H) IQ+2 or (VH) IQ+1 [6]

You are looking at 82pts for being able to cast invisibilty like you wanted and 6 other light spells and only being able to cast them when alone and only learn light and darkness spells only

OR

114pts and being able to learn other spells as well.


Compared to:

Sorcerous Empowerment 8 [90]

OR

Sorcerous Empowerment 44 (Limited college, one, -40%; Limited scope, Solitary, -40%) [90]

PLUS

“Invisibility” [17]
Affliction 1 (HT; Advantage, Invisibility, +680%; Extended Duration, 10x, +40%; Fixed Duration, +0%; Increased 1/2D, 10x, +15%; No Signature, +20%; Sorcery, ‑15%) [84].
Note: “Invisibility” is Invisibility (electromagnetic vision; Affects Machines, +50%; Can Carry Objects, Medium, +50%; Dispels after an attack, -20%; Magical, ‑10%) [68]

Which cost 107pts either way, with the first option also allowing you to "cast" any "spell" worth up to 8pts and the second option allowing you to "cast" any light or darkness "spell" in soltarity up to 44pts!

So the cost, either way, is comparable if you want them to be able to do ONE thing really well.
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Old 06-06-2023, 07:05 AM   #4
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Default Re: Thaumatology Sorcery prohibitively expensive [Rant]

As an aside, I think Kromm (and others) has suggested in the past that if you really want a particular spell, what you could do is buy up a limited version of Sorcerous Empowerment to the level where you'd qualify for that spell if it weren't limited, and then pay full price for the spell and 1/5th for Sorcerous Empowerment (and any other qualifying spell you opt for). So, in this case, you could buy Invisibility [84] + Sorcerous Empowerment 8 (Single College -40%; Solitary -40%; Alternate Ability, x1/5) [3.6], with the latter rounding up to [4]. You can then buy any other spell that costs [84] or less and is in the same college.

Actually, come to think of it, the above setup would just mean you have to be alone to use (and maybe switch away from) Sorcerous Empowerment (which is a Modular Ability that gets you spells worth up to [8] for free and up to [90] with extreme improvisation), you could use Invisibility while in the middle of a crowd without issue. You'll need to toss Solitary onto the Invisibility spell (as well as any other spell you learn), reducing its cost by [4] and making the whole thing cost [84] altogether (or [83.6] prior to rounding up) - or reducing its cost to [50.6] if you apply the Limitation multiplicatively (of course, if you do that, you would have changed the cost of Invisibility to [72.675] by applying the Sorcery Limitation multiplicatively, and then a further -40% would make it [38.475]), for an overall cost of [54.2] (which rounds up to [55]; note rounding up first still gives [55]).

EDIT: As a further aside, with GM permission you can reduce the cost to qualify for Invisibility with College Magic with the Charm Perk, which waives prerequisites for a single spell - instead of [6] spent on putting [1] each into 6 prerequisite spells, you just grab Charm (Invisibility) for [1], saving [5]. Of course, if going that route, you'd probably want something like One Spell Only on your Magery, which I think would be -80% and mean you needn't be alone to go invisible.
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Old 06-06-2023, 07:56 AM   #5
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Default Re: Thaumatology Sorcery prohibitively expensive [Rant]

If all you want is one spell, just buy it as a separate ability.

Sorcerous Empowerment is a Modular Ability that lets you cast literally any spell you can think of. Those spells are weak, because MAs -- especially cosmic ones -- are quite expensive.

The rule limiting the cost of spells to less than the points in SE is a simplification for applying the Alternative Abilities rule. If SE is required to be the most expensive ability, more than any spell, then you know always to pay full price for it, while all the spells, regardless of cost, will be 1/5th. Without that rule, you could still do the math, but you'll have to search to find the most expensive ability in the AA group.

Either way you calculate the cost, the flexible MA (SE) plus an Invis spell is going to be more than just the Invis spell.

Spells-as-skills in Magic becomes unbalanced pretty quickly at higher point levels, especially given the absolute nature of some of those descriptions. It works ok for "starting character" levels (100 points in 3e, 150 in 4e), and DF survives at 250. But higher point levels often means the mage is better than every specialist at their specialties, and at high skill levels from stacking Magery without limit plus IQ mean that those spells can be cast quickly (especially if you want to splurge on a level of Compartmentalized Mind) and for free. Why be anything but a mage?

If the complaint is about balance, the problem isn't that Sorcery is too expensive. It's that Magic is too cheap, especially in the hands of munchkins with a few hundred points to throw at it and no Magery, stat, or skill caps.
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Old 06-06-2023, 09:39 AM   #6
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Default Re: Thaumatology Sorcery prohibitively expensive [Rant]

WOW!
It's really interesting reading all of your comments.

My real issue is that I need to balance the Rigger, Hacking, Cyberware and Mage abilities in the Cyberpunk game I'm aiming at.

In the original I can easily have a Mage with 6-7 spells, the Astral-Space abilities and conjuring some Spirits alongside a Cyberware-packed Streefighter, Drone-flying Get-Away-Car-racing Rigger and a Cyberdeck-wielding Bit-Jockey all at the same point level.

The typical game level I want to run is 250 Points (even lower for a "Beginner-level game") and it works well with those other "Classes".

But if the Mage needs to spend ~100+ points just to be able to cast something "simple" like 'Invisibility' something is weird... OK, I do understand that other (cheaper) spells can easily be bought at 1/5 the full cost but the prerequisite seems really steep...

I've already added a "QN-Roll required" and some other limitations to bring costs down, but that really doesn't do much in the direction of bringing this Mage even close to what the "original game" would produce.

Examples:
1. Healing
This version of the spell restores 1d HP to the target. The target must be touched (skin-to-skin).
The casting roll is at -2 if the subject is unconscious.
If used more than once per day on a given subject, you are at a cumulative -3 per successful healing.
Failure costs you 1d FP in addition to the QP spent for the casting. A critical failure also causes the recipient 1d damage.
There are five levels of this spell each healing 1d damage per level.
Statistics: Healing (Magical -10%; Mana Spell -20%*; Based on QN, Own Roll +20%, Contact Agent -30%;Injuries Only, -20%; Affects Self, +50%; Cannot restore crippled limbs, -10%; Capped & Reduced Fatigue Cost -5%**) [23/36/50/63/77]

* a modifier that limits when and where the spellcan be cast considering astral space and insubstantial being etc...
** I've rolled 'Capped' and 'Reduced Fatigue Cost' points into one modifier in order to make the GCS-version of this spell more easily "leveled". otherwise it's just these two modifiers. The higher levels each heal an additional d6 in damage.

2. Entertainment
You can create lifelike illusions as animated, three-dimensional images of anything you can visualize. Illusions lack mass and substance, and can’t affect material objects in any way besides hiding or illuminating them. The illusion can include visual and audio effects in any spectrum you can see or hear naturally (Cyberware counts as 'natural').
You must concentrate to change the illusion or to have it behave “intelligently” (e.g., to make an illusionary person talk). Without concentration, it will conform to your expectations for how it should behave.
There are four levels of this spell. Each allows an illusion of up to 2^level meter radius.
Other versions of this spell can cover other senses that the caster may not necessarily have.
Audio- and Visual-Only versions of this spell also exist.

Statistics: Illusion (Sorcery -15%; Mana Spell -20%; Accessibility: Does Not affect Machines, Cameras or other technological sensors -20%; Requires QN-Roll, Add own roll, non-resisted -10%; Ranged +40%; Area Effect 1 +50%; Independence +50%) [34/46/59/71]

Please compare this to:

3. Firebolt
Roll to cast, then roll to hit / defend normally.
A 'simple' attack which does 1d burn damage per level with a range of 100/100 Acc 3, RoF 1, Rcl 1.

Statistics: Innate Attack (Burn; Sorcery -15%; requires QN Roll, add own roll, non-resisted -10%; 10x increased 1/2-Damage +15%; Physical Spell -20%) [4/7/11/14/18/21/25/28...]

I know I should cap this spell somewhere at level 6-7 limiting it to 6d-7d damage which is about the same as a single shot from an Assault Rifle. But even at that level it feels WAY CHEAPER than the other spells above.
The Mana Spell based combat spells which are built on Malediction and thus ignore armor are more expensive but still feel much cheaper.

Is that most basic Illusion (with a 2m radius) for 40+34/5 = 47 points REALLY as powerful as a level 10 Firebolt doing 10d burn damage for 40+35/5=47 points?

And then I compare that to the Streetfighter / Samurai who can get the Smart-Link as head-gear giving +1 to guns (which must have the matching hardware) and Gunslinger for a meager 15 points? Adding in a Reflex Booster 2 giving her an extra attack (multi-strike) and Increased Basic Speed Level 4 for 16 points plus the matching Reaction Enhancers for 14 points giving her Ambidexterity, Combat Reflexes and another Increased Basic Speed Level 1... (WiFi must be enabled to benefit from both of the last two). So for a total of 15+16+14=45 points I've made her a literal monster!

Does this really sound balanced?

P.S.: Yes, I know that I can get all of the above spells for 40+36/5+34/5+35/5=62 points but I still only have the most basic versions of the spell... Healing at level 2 ... ok, granted ...

Last edited by Nedorus; 06-06-2023 at 09:48 AM. Reason: added 'Samurai' and highlighted; spelling corrections
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Old 06-06-2023, 10:07 AM   #7
zoncxs
 
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Default Re: Thaumatology Sorcery prohibitively expensive [Rant]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
WOW!
...My real issue is that I need to balance the Rigger, Hacking, Cyberware and Mage abilities in the Cyberpunk game I'm aiming at. ...
Not possible in a point buy system.

Trying to translate a class based, level system to a classless, point based system will show you how unbalanced the class based system is.

My advise, if you REALLY want to go down that route of recreating the classes and abilities:

Ignore point costs. Build every ability as close to what you want as possible. After that, see if you can shave the cost down a little by adding some limitations that you think it should have, don't try to force it!

After that, scratch off the costs when providing it to your players. It does not matter if everyone's point totals are different.
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Old 06-06-2023, 10:21 AM   #8
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Default Re: Thaumatology Sorcery prohibitively expensive [Rant]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
WOW!
It's really interesting reading all of your comments.

My real issue is that I need to balance the Rigger, Hacking, Cyberware and Mage abilities in the Cyberpunk game I'm aiming at.

In the original I can easily have a Mage with 6-7 spells, the Astral-Space abilities and conjuring some Spirits alongside a Cyberware-packed Streefighter, Drone-flying Get-Away-Car-racing Rigger and a Cyberdeck-wielding Bit-Jockey all at the same point level.
I've argued this point repeatedly over the years, but I'll say it again:

The superhumanly strong, nigh-bulletproof superspeedster (oops, that's the "street samurai") is a 500+ point character. He really is. If you presented those powers in a normal Supers game, the GM would be okay with it, because those are Supers appropriate powers and come with a commensurate point cost.

The superhumanly fast rigger with dozens of minions is again, a 500+ point character.

So when the mage - who is the source material can see through all disguises, perform nigh-invisible reconnaissance, and summon nigh-invulnerable disposable minions before he learns any spells - works out to be 500+ points, that's a good thing because it means everyone is playing the same game at the same power level.

In my opinion, your problem isn't that the mage's spells cost to much. Your problem is that you think that 250 CP is sufficient to build a cybernetically enhanced special ops soldier, even though 250 CP is barely enough to build an unenhanced special ops soldier.

If you want a "street" level game of dystopian cybernetic espionage with magic, you need to trim back your expectations for everyone. The street samurai are barely enhanced gangsters with guns, the mage can cast 1 or 2 spells or project astrally or summon things, but not all three. Or you can accept that everyone is effectively a superhero, and give them the CP budget they need to be superhuman.
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Old 06-06-2023, 10:27 AM   #9
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Default Re: Thaumatology Sorcery prohibitively expensive [Rant]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
So as it stands it's 100+ points vs. 55 points for (mostly) the same thing.
The sorcerer can improvise a lot of minor utility effects with ease, and with some difficulty (or a pile of FP) can improvise some quite powerful effects. What they can do is really only limited by the player's imagination (and willingness to engage with the power building mini-game). The Mage cannot do anything like that.

The spells that a sorcerer knows (i.e. has paid points for) are merely the ones they can fire off with but a moment's thought, and are in my experience quite a minor part of their ability (though probably one that sees a lot of use if those spells have been well-selected).

The real power comes from the ability to improvise, and a skilled/talented sorcerer with a modest power level is probably more useful than one with a bit more power and a lower skill and talent level.
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Old 06-06-2023, 10:36 AM   #10
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Default Re: Thaumatology Sorcery prohibitively expensive [Rant]

I have only ever run one game that had a mage using magery that didn't break my game. Part of it my issue because I don't tend to cause rush games very often and eventually the wizard essentially replaces every other PC with their spells.

This honestly isn't as bad unless other pcs want advantage based abilities then they might as well not. Just add more disadvantages to the invisibility to make the cost lower until you are happy with the cost.

The one game I successfully ran was with a player that didn't want to really dig into what magery can do.

Honestly I look at the cost of sorcery/alternative abilities spells and tend to add extra disads to the spells early and let the player increase them until over time they get powerful.
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