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Old 09-22-2019, 07:57 PM   #1
Lancewholelot
 
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Default Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

Recently in a game I was running, a player took the Wait maneuver to attack a cave bear if it came toward him. Before this Wait was triggered the player was stunned by a sorceress' Death Vision spell. The cave bear then gets to move in on its turn without the stunned player getting the attack he was waiting for. The player's next turn starts and I tell him he must take the Do Nothing maneuver due to stun. The player protest that he had already lost a turn and should have already gotten a chance to recover. I stuck to my ruling, but how would you call it?

Last edited by Lancewholelot; 09-23-2019 at 09:52 PM. Reason: typo and clarity
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Old 09-22-2019, 08:45 PM   #2
evileeyore
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

My ruling? His Wait would have finalized with him stunned and making his first recovery roll. Why? Because his turn doesn't end until he either takes his Wait or it passes.

If he succeeded his recovery, then he acts on his next turn. If he failed, he's still stunned.

And partially because he's right, he already lost a turn to the stun.
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Old 09-22-2019, 09:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

Recovery from stun does not occur on any action; it occurs when you take the Do Nothing maneuver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b364
On each turn of Do Nothing, he may attempt a HT roll to recover from physical stun or an IQ roll to recover from mental stun.
On the other hand, nothing in the description of stunning actually prevents you from using a delayed action (it specifies that you take Do Nothing on your next turn, gives a penalty to active defenses, and forbids retreat, but does not address readied actions), and a Wait that fails to trigger is equivalent to Do Nothing.
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Old 09-22-2019, 09:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

If the player's nullified Wait counts as his "next turn" and he successfully rolls recovery, then he'll get to act normally before the sorceress gets a turn following her casting. That's why I think this is wrong and the player still has to Do Nothing on his actual next turn. The Wait maneuver was his last turn, Do Nothing is his next turn. Everyone else still gets their turns while the player is stunned.

Last edited by Lancewholelot; 09-22-2019 at 10:17 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

I agree with Lancewholelot's ruling and reasoning.

I see no reason the character should recover from the sorceress' spell faster just because the character was waiting to do something. Yes, the character did kind of lose an extra turn, but that risk is inherent in the Wait maneuver, though it was worsened by a timely stun effect.
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:55 PM   #6
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

The risk of losing your turn is inherent in a wait maneuver anyway; if the trigger doesn't happen, you lose your action. The actual rules are sort of strange, though.
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Old 09-23-2019, 01:44 AM   #7
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

I don't think the Wait should allow the Do Nothing needed to break the stunning. That would be converting his action.

The character called a Wait manoeuvre, which specified to attack, if the circumstances occurred, otherwise keep waiting. You don't just wait until the thing you're waiting for accurs, you're waiting until it's your turn again. Only then can you do something else.
Or Nothing, as it is here...


And I don't think one should be allowed - even if it is suspected that the sorcesess casts Stunning spells - to call a Wait in order to do an instantaneous break stunning, and then react as if nothing happed first in the next round. Because this nullified the sorceress' effect and because of the 1 second rounds the Stunning is broked almost instantly. Pre-emptive Stun breaking? Nah.
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Old 09-23-2019, 03:29 AM   #8
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

Yep I agree talking a wait is always a risk.

You risk losing the action if your trigger doesn't happen, and you risk something bad happening to you while you wait for your chosen trigger.


What happened here is the player was setting a trap with the bear in mind, but instead got the tables turned on them by the wizard and the bear working "together*"

Allowing the wait to be converted into a retroactive do nothing / recovery effectively gives you an instant recovery. IMO the intent of the do nothing to recover is clear you lose your next turn doing it.




Right OK that's my general ruling based on general principal. But if it had been at my table I might have allowed it / taken pity, depending on what else been going on etc.

1), Did the player know about the wizard, and if they didn't did they take reasonable precautions to see if there was anything else other than the bear about**?
(Ignoring a wizard and giving them time to mess with you, you get what you deserve aka gank the wizard first)


2). Is two rounds of the bear attacking pretty much an automatic death sentence for this character without options to avoid it?
(other characters etc)


I don't go out of my way to fudge rules to save characters but I might take the above points into account and let them make some kind of will roll to allow them to convert the wait action to recovery action after the bear's got it's first round in.





*I don't know how in concert they were working

**this last point is of course nebulous and very dependent on the game up until then. basically was the player not playing smart or was this more towards the "no win" death trap end of the spectrum. Was this encounter in the final hidden sanctum of "The Bear Cult" a group of sorcerers who worship bears and make a habit of working with bears that the players have been working towards for 10 sessions. or was it more a random wilderness encounter.
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-23-2019 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 09-23-2019, 04:48 AM   #9
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
What happened here is the player was setting a trap with the bear in mind, but instead got the tables turned on them by the wizard and the bear working "together*"
If bear and Sorceress are run by other Players, I'm with you. I strongly suspect they were NPCs run by the GM. In which I prefer my ruling.

Quote:
Allowing the wait to be converted into a retroactive do nothing / recovery effectively gives you an instant recovery.
Then rule on this:

Player: I Wait, and if a stunning spell is cast on me I Do Nothing.




Quote:
1), Did the player know about the wizard, and if they didn't did they take reasonable precautions to see if there was anything else other than the bear about**?
(Ignoring a wizard and giving them time to mess with you, you get what you deserve aka gank the wizard first)
There is a Wizard casting something over there and a bear rushing you... What do you worry about immediately?

Quote:
2). Is two rounds of the bear pretty much an automatic death sentence for this character without options to avoid it?
(other characters etc)
I don't even care about that. Dude decided that fighting the bear was the right option, dude get's to fight a bear.


My concern is stripping someone of their Wait, and then acting like "Well, you took a Wait, maybe next time don't waste your turn on risky propositions that."

Not saying you're saying that, but there is a definite stink of that from some other posts. As a GM who almost never sees Waits being used? Yeah, I give those maneuvers a little extra somethin-somethin* to encourage the usage.




* I actually allow 'wasted' Waits to convert into Aim, Evaluate, or Concentrate (Situational Awareness) as most appropriate. I'd also let it slide into one of the "useless" Maneuvers like Do Nothing, Position Change, Ready or even let them take the move portion of whatever Maneuver they had chosen as their Wait if nothing else is appropriate (and they had not yet moved).
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Old 09-23-2019, 05:17 AM   #10
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
If bear and Sorceress are run by other Players, I'm with you. I strongly suspect they were NPCs run by the GM. In which I prefer my ruling.

Fair enough

TBH since I always run everything my players meet so that distinction didn't occur to me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Then rule on this:

Player: I Wait, and if a stunning spell is cast on me I Do Nothing.
I'd probably allow it because:

1). You specially tailoring your wait to more quickly recover from that attack (I.e. it's not a freebie given just because it happened during an unrelated wait)

2). It's a pretty rubbish wait ;-) in general terms i.e that's certainly not abusing wait IMO! Although as part of some elaborate plan that specifically hinges on you responding to a stun 1 action more quickly than the caster might otherwise think possible it could pay off. In which case cool use of wait.


Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
There is a Wizard casting something over there and a bear rushing you... What do you worry about immediately?
Only it's more there is a wizard over there but you ignore him while waiting to bait the bear out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I don't even care about that. Dude decided that fighting the bear was the right option, dude get's to fight a bear.

Fair enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
My concern is stripping someone of their Wait, and then acting like "Well, you took a Wait, maybe next time don't waste your turn on risky propositions that."

Not saying you're saying that, but there is a definite stink of that from some other posts. As a GM who almost never sees Waits being used? Yeah, I give those maneuvers a little extra somethin-somethin* to encourage the usage.


Thing is waits are a risk. Moreover that risk goes up a lot when there are other opponents about, and even more so when you are by yourself. (hence my question about is the PC by themselves, are there others around to cover them while they wait, back them up if it goes wrong etc, etc).

IME Waits are best used as part of wider action, that allows a party to both benefit from them and mitigate the dangers.


So I don't see it as "stripping them of their wait", more that their wait didn't go off as planned. And well sometimes they don't, more relevantly sometimes a wait not going off as planned put the wait-er in a worse situation than if they hadn't waited.

But you want to encourage there use a bit more at your table then go for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
* I actually allow 'wasted' Waits to convert into Aim, Evaluate, or Concentrate (Situational Awareness) as most appropriate. I'd also let it slide into one of the "useless" Maneuvers like Do Nothing, Position Change, Ready or even let them take the move portion of whatever Maneuver they had chosen as their Wait if nothing else is appropriate (and they had not yet moved).

I wouldn't allow that level of conversation in my games, but I do allow a step (and situational awareness /perception rolls to an extent)
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-23-2019 at 06:41 AM.
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