Not quite getting the arquebus

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Shadekeep

It's a good point, and really depends on what is intended by the setup. It might be that even with the weapon in hand it takes four turns to set up the stand and lock it to the recoil hook before firing. That's how I would read it, since all weapon times in TFT are considered to be for readied weapons unless otherwise stated (it says how long it takes to reload a crossbow, but doesn't stipulate a second prep time for a cocked bolt). Since this has both, I read it as "four turns to prepare an already loaded arquebus to fire, twelve to reload and ready again". I would allow a player to fire it immediately without the prep time of setting up the stand, but with a DX penalty and possible recoil consequences. This would be similar to some of the "fire from the hip" rules you see in other games, where speed is valued over accuracy.

Yes, I thought about four turns for setup even if readied, but looking at the adventure "Fire in the Temple", it seems that the author (David Pulver) didn't think it took so long. Those arquebusiers wouldn't have been a reasonable defense if they couldn't fire quickly when the weapon was in hand.

Your penalty for immediate firing is an interesting notion.

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by phiwum

The arquebus takes four turns to ready, because it's clumsy and fired from a stand.

However, that term "ready" is a technical term, far as I understand it, meaning the time to move a weapon from ground or belt to a position to fight. In normal (that is to say, labyrinth and hence abnormal) situations, characters have a weapon readied at all times.

So, suppose a PC is walking around with an arquebus in his hands and finally spots something to shoot. Does he get to shoot on the first turn? That is, is his "readied weapon" readied? Or does he have to deploy his stand, which is what the four turns to ready refers to?

I'm guessing that RAW means if the weapon is not in hands, it takes four turns to ready it for a shot. If it's in hand, then a shot may be immediately taken. I just don't get how that makes much sense if a stand must be set up.

Thanks.

This is my take on firing an arquebus.

Readying an Arquebus

(Already loaded arquebus.)
Turn 1 Put stand on ground
Turn 2 Put gun on stand
Turn 3 Shoulder the gun
Turn 4 Aim

Turn 5 Shoot

Reload & Ready

Turn 1 Take gun off stand
Turn 2 Drop butt of gun to ground
Turn 3 Take out your instruments of loading
Turn 4 Load
Turn 5 Load
Turn 6 Load
Turn 7 Load
Turn 8 Remove instruments of loading

Turn 9 Put stand on ground/steady the stand on ground
Turn 10 Put gun on stand
Turn 11 Shoulder the gun
Turn 12 Aim

Turn 13 Shoot


EDIT: The purpose of the above example was to give a Turn by Turn visual of what might be happening during "Reload" and "Ready".
In "Already loaded Arquebus - Turn 4" and "Reload and Ready - Turn 12" I just put the term "Aim" there as a place holder. Perhaps it could read "finish readying weapon"?

[zot]

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

This is my take on firing an arquebus.

Readying an Arquebus

(Already loaded arquebus.)
Turn 1 Put stand on ground
Turn 2 Put gun on stand
Turn 3 Shoulder the gun
Turn 4 Aim

Turn 5 Shoot

Reload & Ready

Turn 1 Take gun off stand
Turn 2 Drop butt of gun to ground
Turn 3 Take out your instruments of loading
Turn 4 Load
Turn 5 Load
Turn 6 Load
Turn 7 Load
Turn 8 Remove instruments of loading

Turn 9 Put stand on ground/steady the stand on ground
Turn 10 Put gun on stand
Turn 11 Shoulder the gun
Turn 12 Aim

Turn 13 Shoot

From my read of the RAW, once it's ready you pick your target on the same turn you fire.

Saying it takes a turn to aim means you have to commit to a target and aim at it for a turn and then you can only fire at that target after that turn. So, if your target is taken out during the turn you are aiming, you're unable to fire at anything on the next turn -- you have to pick another target and then aim at that one for a turn.

I don't see anything like that in the rules.

[phiwum]

I've notice that the rules on guns (ITL 124) use the same term ("ready") for both arquebus and blunderbuss.

Originally Posted by ITL124

The arquebus is a large musket. It fires a single ball for
over 400 yards. It is considered a missile weapon, doing 3d+3
dice damage. It is very clumsy; it takes 4 turns to ready, and
12 turns to reload and ready after firing. It must be fired from
a stand. Anyone without Guns talent has a -6 to use this.

...

A blunderbuss takes only one turn to ready, but 12 turns to
reload after firing.

It seems to me, given the one turn to ready the blunderbuss, that the word is being used in the technical sense of "ready new weapon" and hence the four turns were intended for the length of time to move a weapon from the belt to the hands and be able to fire it. Thus, I think RAW intended that a guy walking in a labyrinth with an arquebus in hand could fire immediately.

Nonetheless, I'll house rule two turns to move from belt to hands and two turns to set up the stand (one turn with a helper).

Mind you, even now, I'm not confident of my reading of RAW, but I'm presuming that "ready" means the same thing in all three uses quoted above and I doubt that a blunderbuss takes one turn to set up when readied. I'm also leaning on the fact that "ready weapon" has a well-defined meaning elsewhere.

It bugs me somewhat that the arquebus mentions reload and ready and the blunderbuss doesn't use the term "ready" when discussing reloading. That could be just normal sloppiness in written English or it could be significant.

[larsdangly]

If you just apply RAW to the arquebus as you would to any other weapon, then it seems obvious (to me at least) that you can ready it whenever you like and then move about at will and fire it without additional readying, much as you would a heavy crossbow or throwing spear or whatever else you wish to name. All of these weapons present logistical problems to a bearer who wishes to move about without disturbing the readiness of their arms, but all those details are subsumed into the abstractions of TFT's treatment of the concept of readiness and the 'ready' action. There is nothing in the rules book (that I'm aware of) that contradicts treating the arquebus just the same way.

So, this is not a rules problem; it is a cognitive dissonance problem: people have a feeling that some further restriction is or should be implied, perhaps having to do with movement. I don't think there is a clear solution, so everyone will just have to do what they like best. Personally, I'd say the two rulings that make the most sense to me are either: an arquebus becomes unready if you move (other than changing facing); or, an arquebus becomes unready if you move more than 1 or 2 hexes per turn (making it analogous to the constraints on spell casting and other missile weapons).

Either could be fine, though I dislike how it 'nerfs' the weapon, which already has a great many other restrictions (cost, talent, misfire chance, slow initial readying and reloading). For these reasons, I prefer to say that the 4 turn restriction applies only to the initial readying, and that a person moving around with a readied arquebus can fire it effectively without additional turns of readying. I.e., any nonsense you would have to do with a prop stick is subsumed into the act off firing, much as drawing and aiming a bow or shouldering a crossbow is part of their fire action.

[larsdangly]

Also note: the original arquebus rules stated that when a person with Guns talent fires from the stand, they get a +4 DX adjustment. The revision omits this and simply says you have to use the stand. So, another house ruling you might make is that you get the +4 adjustment when you are using the stand, but that this aspect of the weapon is lost if you move after readying - i.e., after moving you can fire on short notice but gain no DX bonus.

[phiwum]

Great summary of the issues, Lars, and while your solution makes some sense, I still prefer some setup costs before the act of firing after moving.

But at this point, I'm willing to say that my insistence on such costs has moved from RAW clarification to house rule. Lars's interpretation is a very plausible literal reading of RAW.

[phiwum]

Hmph. I'm waffling.

I found this image of an arquebusier in action. If one has the stand in one hand and the weapon in the other, it would be pretty quick to set up and shoot.

In all honesty, I'd think it takes more than five seconds, but I also think a lot of things that take one turn should take longer or shorter than that.

Maybe I'll end with Lars's suggestion after all.

[Helborn]

The article in wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus) is quite good. It specifically states that reloading an arquebus took from 20 to 60 seconds "under ideal conditions". It also requires a stand. Note that the stand is NOT "quick to set up". It's, essentially, a fork on a stick which has to be balanced. So you have two long poles - the stand and the arquebus - which you have to balance the one, then put the other into the fork, step back still balancing, aim and fire.
A Chinese general created an 11 step song to time the event.
I think RAW is absolutely correct about the timing. 20 seconds from beginning to firing on the 5th Turn. I'm not sure that @johnPaulB is correct about assigning specific steps to specific turns, but it works.

[Axly Suregrip]

I play it that once readied if you move you have to do the 4 turns of readying again.

If someone wants later period guns, then this can be eliminated.