context needed to use (and thus train/better) certain default skills like Religios

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by ericthered

And if you don't have that people tend to drift away, go astray, and so forth. The constant miracles of exodus are surprisingly ineffective at producing devout followers, and I don't think that's the only story featuring that sort of thing.

Jesus's miracles didn't save his life.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Jesus's miracles didn't save his life.

Not sure how that relates to what you're responding to, but that could be a matter of perspective depending on whether father/son aspect of trinity are viewed as distinct characters or not.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Plane

Not sure how that relates to what you're responding to, but that could be a matter of perspective depending on whether father/son aspect of trinity are viewed as distinct characters or not.

I'm agreeing with what Eric said. But in doing so, I'm viewing Jesus as a human founder of a religion. I'm not inquiring into how you would do a character sheet for an omnipotent and omniscient entity.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I'm not inquiring into how you would do a character sheet for an omnipotent and omniscient entity.

I don't know if there's actually any need to go that far in GURPS. If we convert any deities in terms of justifying documented miracles then you'd only need to go so far as whatever events actually happened as opposed to hypothetical events they should be able to do based on WOG

IE parting the 56k cubic miles of the red sea but not parting the 170mil cubic miles of the pacific ocean.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Plane

I don't know if there's actually any need to go that far in GURPS. If we convert any deities in terms of justifying documented miracles then you'd only need to go so far as whatever events actually happened as opposed to hypothetical events they should be able to do based on WOG.

Plane referred to the trinity, which seems to point at relying on the theological definitions rather than on the actually documented feats.

[Hide]

Something I would call “an inherent element” around defending against/fighting evil spirits and performing miracles is the power of the Faith.

I am not an exegete, but in the Bible there’s an emphasis on the fact that Jesus’ miracles took place because others believed in the power of God (had Faith). This includes exorcisms. On the other hand, it was Jesus’ Faith that helped him resist temptation when he retired to the desert; you could stretch the idea and assume his Faith purified the place, driving away the evil spirit.

The more Faith you have, the better the results. AFAIK, a “correct” exorcism will work against any type of evil spirit. You only have to be familiar with your Faith, which you increase with actions such as meditation, piety and so on.

By the way, regardless of the character's religion, you can improve exorcism with divine favors (further details about it in GURPS Divine Favors); the god of your religion boosts the power of your Faith and so you improve your performance. If you create a special system, theology would be part of the basic “Divine Power Suite”.

Evil spirits have more “tolerance” to Faith or certain rituals; this means not all “challenges” are the same and IMO this would span some skill penalties if ill prepared.

Finally, I should emphasize the fact that Jesus’ did not work miracles to benefit himself; you could say that’s one of the motives that kept him from “saving himself” in the face of death. Something similar happened with Moses and God: his miracles were aimed to benefit others. If you check the Gospel, the chapter in which Jesus prays to be spared but is later apprehended, there’s stress on the fact that his disciples did not accompany him at that time (they dozed off); this has always hinted (to me) a lack of Faith in Jesus’ disciples at that moment. Maybe if they had accompanied Jesus during his prayers, Jesus could have been saved from apprehension and possibly from death (a miracle). On that respect, I would say that Jesus was ultimately saved by God with the miracle of resurrection, although he did not “escape” crucifixion.

Take care!

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Hide

Something I would call “an inherent element” around defending against/fighting evil spirits and performing miracles is the power of the Faith.

Without going into the details of your theological analysis - we're verging on sensitive territory here - I'd like to mention that faith is an in-built factor for the Exorcism skill under the rules. If you have no True Faith (and/or any of the two similar advantages, Blessed and Power Investiture), you automatically are at a significant handicap, -4 (see p. B193).

[Gumby Bush]

Originally Posted by Michele

Without going into the details of your theological analysis - we're verging on sensitive territory here - I'd like to mention that faith is an in-built factor for the Exorcism skill under the rules. If you have no True Faith (and/or any of the two similar advantages, Blessed and Power Investiture), you automatically are at a significant handicap, -4 (see p. B193).

There's a passage in Acts where a devil goes, basically, "I know Jesus, and I've heard of Paul, but who do you think you are, telling me what to do?!" (Acts 19:11-20), which is basically: you failed because you lack True Faith.

And, on theological analyses: for our purposes, it is enough that there are varied ones, which might inform a given game world. If you take a particular analysis, certain mechanics may drop out... but there are always other analyses.

The idea that Jesus was limited by the lack of faith of others is one I would oppose on theological grounds (although I grant there are some tricky passages that seem to indicate it). However, if you want to run your game in a way that draws on that idea, I'm not stopping you--and I might run a game that way, just as a thoroughgoing materialist who holds that we are essentially embodied might ignore that so they can include ghosts and such (or the physics of light and perception can be ignored for invisibility). It's a game, not (necessarily) an exercise in hard scientific and theological speculation.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

The idea that Jesus was limited by the lack of faith of others is one I would oppose on theological grounds (although I grant there are some tricky passages that seem to indicate it). However, if you want to run your game in a way that draws on that idea, I'm not stopping you--and I might run a game that way, just as a thoroughgoing materialist who holds that we are essentially embodied might ignore that so they can include ghosts and such (or the physics of light and perception can be ignored for invisibility). It's a game, not (necessarily) an exercise in hard scientific and theological speculation.

In any case, the narrative of Gospels says that (a) Jesus was known as a worker of miracles, but (b) he was put to death by the Romans [who may not have heard of those miracles, or may have considered them as the equivalent of tabloid news] (c) at the instigation of the Jewish leaders [who certainly were aware of the stories of his miracles]. Being a thaumaturge isn't supposed to have protected him. Nor did his Charisma, though I would credit anyone who founded a world religion with high Charisma.

It's also clear that though his immediate followers were massively impressed by him, they didn't always do what he said. There was a lot of disputation among them.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

There's a passage in Acts where a devil goes, basically, "I know Jesus, and I've heard of Paul, but who do you think you are, telling me what to do?!" (Acts 19:11-20), which is basically: you failed because you lack True Faith.

Yes, that's relevant, but to be more precise, the guys making that attempt were the sons of a Jewish rabbi. It's entirely possible, for all we know, that they did have True Faith - in their own religion. But they tried to invoke the name of the founder of another religion. And that does not work under the rules!. GURPS True Faith requires you to resort to "your religion" (italics in the rules). If you try to turn a demon away by brandishing a Koran but you're sincerely Animist, that's automatic failure, even if your Animist faith is True Faith.

And, on theological analyses: for our purposes, it is enough that there are varied ones, which might inform a given game world. If you take a particular analysis, certain mechanics may drop out... but there are always other analyses.

The idea that Jesus was limited by the lack of faith of others is one I would oppose on theological grounds (although I grant there are some tricky passages that seem to indicate it). However, if you want to run your game in a way that draws on that idea, I'm not stopping you--

Yes, of course. My point was not to try and stop anyone from gaming in any way they want at their table. My point was that the theological interpretation given to Christ's prayer in the Gethsemane garden and to his death, provided in the post I was responding to, might be considered as wrong by Christians of most denominations. And thus, possibly, offensive, and we should try not to offend anyone, especially about such a sensitive topic as religion, here.