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Old 09-27-2020, 08:35 AM   #1
SClay
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Default Where to find information on material DR

A player brought up an obvious but glaring oversight in my knowledge. He wanted to consider various metals for armor or weapons.

Like Brass swords or armor of a given type VS Iron or steel of the same type sword or armor

I have assumed the mass change is negligible enough that damage really won't change in most cases, though it should affect DR of an object and possibly it's ability to keep an edge.

Is there a good place to find this kind of info. and while I am at it I guess I should go ahead and expand my knowledge to common Fantasy materials if possible such as Mythral.
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Old 09-27-2020, 08:58 AM   #2
johndallman
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Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: Where to find information on material DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by SClay View Post
A player brought up an obvious but glaring oversight in my knowledge. He wanted to consider various metals for armor or weapons.
Low-Tech, pp. 106-110 has solid historical information. Brass is not significantly different from bronze for these purposes, although bronze is easier to make in predictable quality grades without advanced metallurgy.

Mithril and other fictional metals are defined by the GM or the setting. Fantasy has an example in Orichalcum. on p. 26.
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Old 09-27-2020, 09:17 AM   #3
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Where to find information on material DR

Dungeon Fantasy 1 has some more fictional materials for armor and weapons (silver, dragonhide, orichalcum, meteoric iron). Also fantasy ethnic cool adjectives like "Elven" and "Dwarven". Your setting can of course do whatever you like with the adjectives; SJG publications stay away from stepping on toes with some specific words like "mithril".

Superior metallurgy like better steel is usually lumped into the Fine / Very Fine categories.

The tables on B558 aren't specific to weapons and armor, but might give you some ideas of how some stranger materials compare so you can scale the Basic stats accordingly.
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Old 09-27-2020, 11:20 AM   #4
SClay
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Default Re: Where to find information on material DR

Thanks, that is a good place to start.

I saw the things in BS and they seem to scale up well but they do not scale down well. Armor is not normally half inch thick and if I scale it down then it seems no better than leather.

As far as fantasy materials yes it is my call in the end but if I can have a base to start from then I can make a more uniform informed call
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Old 09-27-2020, 01:34 PM   #5
zoncxs
 
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Default Re: Where to find information on material DR

Low tech is great because it breaks down what material can be used to make armor, but it only goes for the mundane/realistic stuff. Dungeon Fantasy 8 has more fantasy stuff in it. A few Pyramid Articles have even more material (The ones that have the armor design articles for high tech and ultra tech). I think Fantasy Tech 1 and 2 have a few more materials (I got Azzalum from one of those I think).


Here is what I have:

ARMOR

Bone/Horn, Dragonbone/horn
Cloth, Silk, Giant Spider Silk
Leather, Dragonhide
Wood, Spirit Wood, Paper
Stone, Jade, Tempered Glass
Metal(Steel), Bronze, Iron, Orichalcum, Azzalum, Meteorite



WEAPONS

Wood
Horn/Tooth
Bone
Stone
Obsidian
Bronze
Iron
Steel
Tempered Glass
Orichalcum
Spirit Wood
Dragonbone/horn
Azzalum
PoisonWood
Poison Metal


How much DR does each have? irrelevant for armor, but for weapons it matters. This is because for armor you are aiming for a specific DR rating (usually between 1 and 9). So what matters their is how much the weight changes or any other effects. For example Orichalum, as a weapon it "won't break" and other weapons have +2 to their chances of breaking (so instead of 1 in 6 its 3 in 6 for most weapons). As armor it reduces the weight to only 1/3 but at 30x the price.

So a DR 6 plate torso armor costing $3000 and weighing 21 lbs (mostly made up numbers) would be, as an Orichalcum one, $90,000 and weigh 7 lbs. The cost would be a lot more if you wanted to keep the same weight (21 lbs) because you would need to start with armor that is 63 lbs.

Shields are unique, the CF is +149 instead of +29. This is because you first need to make the shield metal (+4 CF from either Low Tech 2 to make it metal or from DF to make it "Dwarven"), then you make it Orichalcum. 1+4 = 5 *30 = 150.

DF has the weight reduction be 2/3 instead of 1/3 because you first make it "dwarven" which doubles the weight, THEN Orichalcum which reduces it to 1/3, which leaves you at a weight that is 2/3 the original. (if you started at 9 lbs, double to 18 lbs, then 1 third of that is 6 lbs which is 2/3 of 9 lbs). If you use Low Tech then the weight is 0.25 the original (3/4 times 1/3 is 1/4)
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Old 09-27-2020, 05:57 PM   #6
SClay
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Default Re: Where to find information on material DR

Interesting reasoning. rather than use the same amount of a material to get a different DR you change the amount of the material to get the same DR.

While this has its uses doesn't this mean that where damage is concerned there is no point in using higher grade materials?

what if you pile on the tougher material till it is comparable weight to the original, how would you calculate the gains? they can't be linear if that were the case a sacrifice in weight you would have three times the DR. that seems excessive.

I want to state I am not planning to do this but sometimes players want to break things and knowing in advance helps damage control.
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Old 10-05-2020, 12:46 PM   #7
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Where to find information on material DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by SClay View Post
A player brought up an obvious but glaring oversight in my knowledge. He wanted to consider various metals for armor or weapons.

Like Brass swords or armor of a given type VS Iron or steel of the same type sword or armor

I have assumed the mass change is negligible enough that damage really won't change in most cases, though it should affect DR of an object and possibly it's ability to keep an edge.

Is there a good place to find this kind of info. and while I am at it I guess I should go ahead and expand my knowledge to common Fantasy materials if possible such as Mythral.
There are some rules for low-tech and high-tech armour of various materials in Pyramid: Pyramid 3/52 is one issue among two or three.

Weapons are really really complicated, TL 1-5 steels are very hard to model and so are toolsl. And the bronzes used for weapons don't match any of the standard modern alloys, because those alloys are designed to make modern things and hit modern price points not make bronze age things and hit bronze age price points.

Follow Ken Hite's Law and use reality as your setting: if something the size and shape of a Broadsword existed in bronze, it should have Broadsword stats in GURPS. If you can't find a model, then its probably not practical to make that GURPS weapon from that material.
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Old 10-05-2020, 03:35 PM   #8
SClay
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Default Re: Where to find information on material DR

Thanks I will look into the pyramid volume you pointed to.

as far as TL, I honestly don't see it as important at this time.
the campaign is TL 4~5 but is also high fantasy and that tends to skew things a bit if you are not just using it as a sugar coating like many settings do.

if magic is a part of the world and these materials are common enough to be recognized by most applicable merchants and or artisans, then access to and manufacture with these materials is pretty well on there way. probably bolstered with respective crafting magics.

I am trying to avoid certain common tropes such as ALL elven armor is Mythril or all X race's weapons are made of X-ium. it's silly if you think about it especially if the material in question is rare.

so my player's question about material makes sense for rounding out the world.

still ironing out my approach but will try to remember to share my results.
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Old 10-05-2020, 04:17 PM   #9
SClay
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Default Re: Where to find information on material DR

purchased and looked through pyramid 3/52.

it does cover the necessary rules, you can make armor that way.
I really don't see the value of the hyper focus on TL outside excluding materials and production types, which should be a consideration of the campaign setting usually,
not really as useful for the crafting of an item itself, and rather than an equation things like "Don" could probably benefit from a chart and have the equation as a foot note.

it would streamline the creation process (which is currently 8 steps, per piece of armor)
It feels a little clunky to me, so I am probably going to set up a spreadsheet with all the right data for quick use.
Computers were practically made for set it and forget it math.
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Old 10-05-2020, 08:13 PM   #10
Polydamas
 
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Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Where to find information on material DR

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Originally Posted by SClay View Post
I really don't see the value of the hyper focus on TL outside excluding materials and production types, which should be a consideration of the campaign setting usually,
Its because armour and metallurgy are technologies, so what you can do depends on the surrounding society. "Bronze" "brass" "iron" and "steel" are shorthand for a world of complexity which actual artisans and factories have to deal with. You could not make a 15th century CE suit of plate armour with 5th century BCE iron and craft skills, you can make much more impressive bronze swords with Early Iron Age Age technology than with Early Bronze Age technology.
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