Bow Quick Shoot House Rule

[Joxer]

This rule is aimed at a realistic Banestorm Campaign (no WM or HA), but it's not trying to simulate real life. The goal is to give more options to ranged attacks, bring more flavour to bows choice and keep game balance. I'm aware of the MA Quick Shoot rule, but don't like the extra roll to ready.
The concept hovers in a combination of partial draw and quick shoot and I think it suits a realistic game due to some videos on youtube showing quick shoot tricks (spotted a few threads about this topic on this forum). I could see two trick types: "low power" fast shoots (quick target practice) and low accuracy "full power" shoots ('n' arrows flying before the first hit the ground).


Ranged Attack Option: Quick Shoot 2.0

• A Ready and Attack in a single turn (With Fast Draw (Arrow) it's possible to attack at every turn). The Attack is at a combined total penalty of -6 in Bow skill and/or ST as the attacker chooses. Effective ST cannot be lower than weapon ST (minimum ST, not weapon ST used for Range and Damage). Range is also affected by effective ST.

I like this rule so there's a small benefit for characters with even ST (can lower Effective ST without losing damage) and give some flavour to a Short Bow for acurate better RoF when damage is not a concern.

Rule not playtested yet. I'm also thinking about an Extra Effort option to lower penalty to -3 (mimicking Flurry of Blows). I want to hear you feedback if there's something in this rule that can break game balance or something that can be improved (again, not trying to simulate real life!).

Please forgive bad grammar.

[mhd]

I don't quite get what you mean with the different ST ratings.

So your character has ST 15 and a ST 15 longbow, and thus could lower the effective ST up to -4, as the minimum ST for the general set of longbows is 11? Why would that matter? And speaking of ST, do you allow Strong Bow to apply here or only for proper full length draws?

The problem I've got with faster shooting bows in a realistic setup is that bows are too good in general (or ST damage is, or both). In combination with high player skills, this makes quantity over quality a deal that is a bit too good. Plinking bows would end up with shuriken, damage-wise, being more a nuisance than a real danger, even with relatively unarmored opponents.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Joxer

Ranged Attack Option: Quick Shoot 2.0

• A Ready and Attack in a single turn (With Fast Draw (Arrow) it's possible to attack at every turn). The Attack is at a combined total penalty of -6 in Bow skill and/or ST as the attacker chooses. Effective ST cannot be lower than weapon ST (minimum ST, not weapon ST used for Range and Damage). Range is also affected by effective ST.

This seems fair. Except it doesn't make much sense to reduce ST. All other GURPS combat modifiers affect Damage.

Compare with All Out Attack or Committed Attack. Also Damage and Skill tends to not be equal but be at a factor of 2:1.
So +2 skill = +1 damage. The same could apply here, in reverse.

So it's either -6 bow skill or -3 damage.

Also I probably wouldn't allow players to chose a combination as I fear they would stop and try to calculate optimal effect for every attack depending on known Range penalty, hit location and DR of target... and that would slow the game down tremendously. But that might jut be my players. :)
So I would say one or the other.

----

Btw. in my games I allow people to substitute an Attack with a Ready. So people could make an All Out:Double and make a "ready + attack".
This way, with Fast Draw, anyone can shoot every turn. But at the cost of defense.

[Joxer]

Originally Posted by mhd

I don't quite get what you mean with the different ST ratings.

So your character has ST 15 and a ST 15 longbow, and thus could lower the effective ST up to -4, as the minimum ST for the general set of longbows is 11?

Exactly. I mean minimum ST for general set of bow.

Originally Posted by mhd

Why would that matter?

I think RAW states that the particular bow ST is the minimum required to operate it, so there's no "different ST ratings". I just want
to add flavour towards smaller bows beyond bulk and price. Think about it as even strong bows requires a minimum draw strength to make an arrow fly. Smaller bows would require less ST (the ST parameter in weapon table).

Originally Posted by mhd

And speaking of ST, do you allow Strong Bow to apply here or only for proper full length draws?

I don't allow Strong Bow perk, but would rule as the archer having +2 to ST for any draw length. My rule was refering to archer's, not bow's ST so an archer with ST greater than his bow's can have some benefit, since his exceeding ST is wasted with that particular bow.

Originally Posted by mhd

The problem I've got with faster shooting bows in a realistic setup is that bows are too good in general (or ST damage is, or both). In combination with high player skills, this makes quantity over quality a deal that is a bit too good. Plinking bows would end up with shuriken, damage-wise, being more a nuisance than a real danger, even with relatively unarmored opponents.

That's my main concern: Game balance. I try to keep balance in check with level skill cap. I think high skill levels (20+) are a threat to realistic game. I want to give my players more combat options with fair trade-off. I don't want they mindless sticking to a specific attack option, because it's too good (i.e. unbalanced). For this reason I don't allow points spent increasing combat techniques.
For my current game power level -3 damage is a huge penalty for a Thrust attack (most attacks would be unable to pierce any armor) and -6 to skill would bring the most skilled archer (Bow 18) at 7 yd from a sure (95%) to a low (37.5%) chance to hit.
If people start doing Quick shoot to the eye every turn I want it to be due to my lack of control in players' skill level instead of bad rules.

Originally Posted by Maz

This seems fair. Except it doesn't make much sense to reduce ST. All other GURPS combat modifiers affect Damage.

Compare with All Out Attack or Committed Attack. Also Damage and Skill tends to not be equal but be at a factor of 2:1.
So +2 skill = +1 damage. The same could apply here, in reverse.

So it's either -6 bow skill or -3 damage.

It can be weird but makes sense, since what you see as +2 skill = +1 damage is the same as +1 skill = +0.5 damage. Thrust damage can be seen as +0.5 Thrust damage per +1 ST rounded down.
I chose this aproach to give a minor bonus to a even ST score (useless for damage) and to lower damage also reduce shoot range.
For odd ST scores it would be simple +2 skill = -1 damage. An even ST score would allow +1 to skill without damage penalty on top of it.

Originally Posted by Maz

Also I probably wouldn't allow players to chose a combination as I fear they would stop and try to calculate optimal effect for every attack depending on known Range penalty, hit location and DR of target... and that would slow the game down tremendously. But that might jut be my players. :)
So I would say one or the other.

Let player chose a combination is the same mechanic used in Deceptive Attack, and gives the player room to try optimal effect in the same way. I hope it doesn't slow the game as you expect, but you bring up a legit concern.

Originally Posted by Maz

Btw. in my games I allow people to substitute an Attack with a Ready. So people could make an All Out:Double and make a "ready + attack".
This way, with Fast Draw, anyone can shoot every turn. But at the cost of defense.

AoA(Double) for ranged attack allowing Ready + Attack seems unbalanced compared with AoA(Determined), with gives only +1 skill bonus. Losing defenses with Ranged AoA is more forgiving than in melee combat.

[mhd]

Originally Posted by Joxer

I think RAW states that the particular bow ST is the minimum required to operate it, so there's no "different ST ratings". I just want to add flavour towards smaller bows beyond bulk and price. Think about it as even strong bows requires a minimum draw strength to make an arrow fly. Smaller bows would require less ST (the ST parameter in weapon table).

I still don't get the mechanics of this. If I'm running around with the minimum possible longbow, I can't reduce my draw, but if I rund around with a more powerful one, I can?

[Joxer]

Originally Posted by mhd

I still don't get the mechanics of this. If I'm running around with the minimum possible longbow, I can't reduce my draw, but if I rund around with a more powerful one, I can?

Good point. I’ll remove the min ST threshold.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Joxer

AoA(Double) for ranged attack allowing Ready + Attack seems unbalanced compared with AoA(Determined), with gives only +1 skill bonus. Losing defenses with Ranged AoA is more forgiving than in melee combat.

That's probably right. I just always felt that the AOA:Determiend for ranged never got used anyway.... except for long range sniping. So this way archers have another option open to them.

[Joxer]

Originally Posted by mhd

I still don't get the mechanics of this. If I'm running around with the minimum possible longbow, I can't reduce my draw, but if I rund around with a more powerful one, I can?

I think I misunderstood your statement in my first answer.
If you have ST 15 and a ST 11 longbow, You can't reduce your draw, but since you're stronger than the bow, can easier go full draw and do a steadier quick shoot. (effective ST 11 and -2 to skill). With Strong Bow perk (or ST17) you could attack with unmodified Bow skill every turn if you succeed fast draw rolls. That could be excessive... but you're giving away a potential +3 damage.

But if you have ST 11, as my first answer, you could only go for a clumsy quick shoot (-6 skill) with a longbow.
I'm still thinking if it should be like that, so low ST characters can think about using a short bow for more accurate quick shoots.