Character Generation House Rules

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

That just shifts them more into Scout and Barbarian territory, less in the Knight, and pretty firmly out of the Martial Artist and Swashbuckler territory.

They're still perfectly adequate in knight, martial artist, and swashbuckler, just less 'obviously the superior choice'.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Anthony

They're still perfectly adequate in knight, martial artist, and swashbuckler, just less 'obviously the superior choice'.

Yes, exactly. Discriminatory Smell is something a Scout or Barbarian might (probably) want anyway, less so for a Knight, but will really cut into a Martial Artist or Swashbuckler's budget and the high ST isn't as prominent* for those two as for the Knight.


* I've now seen several Ogre Scout builds cross my desk for DF games... so being able to use the mythic "ST 27 or 35 bow" has become a thing recently.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

That just shifts them more into Scout and Barbarian territory, less in the Knight, and pretty firmly out of the Martial Artist and Swashbuckler territory.

Which "just" make them appealing​ to less templates. Isn't that the point?
Or is the goal to make them appealing to no one?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Which "just" make them appealing​ to less templates. Isn't that the point?

Hmmm. This is true.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Which "just" make them appealing​ to less templates. Isn't that the point?
Or is the goal to make them appealing to no one?

For me, the "racial template" goal is three part

1. not obviously superior to a human build for any template
2. not obviously inferior for at least a few
3. brings something new and interesting

I like the D. Smell hack for the last point, but I think it doesn't quite fix the first[1], as Barb and Scout Haogers are still superior. Maybe add some of disease resistance, even if it stomps on the Haorc a little?

[1] Arguably scout elves also fail at 1, but for me at least SoD Nature is a big deal for someone who needs their targets to have hit locations - there is a lot of inconvenient overlap.

[Bruno]

I think moving their disadvantages around to have less social problems and more dungeon problems is more directly targeting peoples complaints. Bolting more advantages onto the template never fixes the "this combination of disadvantages is not a real problem in my game" issue, so that remains "free points" (or at least discount points).

The "simpler" solution is to "just" make sure those disadvantages are disadvantageous in the dungeon somehow. I'm all for creative solutions, but this one could do with someone creative coming up with a list of ways to do that and sharing with the rest of us struggling to make it work :P

[Bruno]

I'm not sweating a race-profession pair being good, unless there's only one race for one profession that's good. I really don't mind h-ogre barbarians and h-ogre scouts being quite good - dwarf barbarians and elf scouts are also quite good.

The only way to have all races be not-particularly-good-or-bad at anything is to have them all have no attribute modifiers, advantages, or disadvantages. Which makes them interesting-looking but otherwise like humans, which is nifty, but it makes sense that something bigger is stronger (for example) and that requires differentiating with game mechanics.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Bolting more advantages onto the template never fixes the "this combination of disadvantages is not a real problem in my game" issue, so that remains "free points" (or at least discount points).

I disagree - one makes templates better by having disads AND ads that aren't narrowly themed in terms of adventuring utility.

Disads are generally a great deal for the points - of the hundreds of GURPS PCs I have looked over in my life, maybe one or two didn't buy disads right up to the limit.

As most templates add to the disad threshold, they are and attractive way to pay for more ads that you want.

If the disads OR the ads are narrowly themed, you will make the template easy to exploit by exploiting those themes. If you make the theme diffuse in terms of adventuring utility, you make it harder to exploit and, IMHO, more fun.

Most of the templates in DFRPG clearly subscribe to this at least a little. The Haogre is the main exceptionas it is narrowly themed as a scary killer. Making it a scary killer with a sensitive honker is a big improvement, and making it a scary killer with a sensitive honker and (say) a weakness to ice weasels would be even better, if you could munge the fluff into the right shape.
No, this is not just a thinly veiled attempt to further global ice weasel supremacy. Really.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by martinl

I disagree - one makes templates better by having disads AND ads that aren't narrowly themed in terms of adventuring utility.

I'm sorry... did you wander in here by mistake? This is DFRPG, by definition there is really nothing else to the game.

If you make the theme diffuse in terms of adventuring utility, you make it harder to exploit and, IMHO, more fun.

Actually... none of the races in DFRPG break far outside the 'great for adventuring' mold.

Sure, I can see the argument that Half-Elf, Half-Orc, and Half-Ogre are only disadvantaged when they leave the dungeon, but... so? None of the others are seriously disadvantaged in the dungeon (there can be cases made for Impulsive, Curious, Gluttony, Greed, etc all leading to dangerous situations though).


I can also see the argument that Cat-Folk, Elf, Gnome, Halfling, and Half-Elf have 'unnecessary advantages weighing them down' that Half-Orc, Half-Ogre, and Dwarf aren't packaged with.

Indeed, in my estimation, Dwarf and Half-Orc are the optimum racial packages as there is nothing bad inherently on them†.




† I really hate Greed as a disad, I don't play it all, so never take it... thus personally I have a problem with Dwarves. But I know most other people don't have that issue, and Greed is inherently not that big a problem compared to say reduced Attributes.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I'm sorry... did you wander in here by mistake? This is DFRPG, by definition there is really nothing else to the game.

You misunderstand. Not "narrowly focused on adventuring," narrowly focused on a specific aspect of adventuring."