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Old 09-26-2020, 01:32 PM   #31
Plane
 
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Default Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones?

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
I'm not sure where you are getting this from. That -5% is explicitly because those powers exist and can affect it. If Static works against Biological powers in one setting and doesn't in another, only the first setting would be getting the -5%.
I'm talking about the distinction between wild advantages of biological origin, and non-wild advantages with a biological source.

If the rule is that Neutralize (Biological) intended for non-wild biological "power" advantages ALSO affects wild advantages (no limitations) due to them having a biological 'origin' then it would be weird that the wild advantages would not also get the -5%.

Re:
Neutralize and Static shouldn’t interfere with “wild” advantages that aren’t associated with any power source.
The implication here, by singling out non-associated wild advantages, is that there ARE associated "wild" advantages which have a (power) source-association despite not being a "power" themselves (due to being wild).

This probably means the "Origin" since there doesn't seem to be any other criteria.

My assumption this was just limited to skills (chi stuff like blind fighting or power blow, magic stuff like spells) based on P97's "special skills" emphasis seems to be wrong as I overlooked the "(and advantages)" parenthesis in paragraph 3.
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Old 09-26-2020, 01:43 PM   #32
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Default Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Re:
Neutralize and Static shouldn’t interfere with “wild” advantages that aren’t associated with any power source.
The implication here, by singling out non-associated wild advantages, is that there ARE associated "wild" advantages which have a (power) source-association despite not being a "power" themselves (due to being wild).
I'd suggest that you're possibly over-reading that. Rather than singling out a subset of wild advantages, it is quite likely providing a definition of wild advantages. The presence of quotation marks around "wild" in the sentence supports that read.
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Old 09-26-2020, 04:35 PM   #33
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Default Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I'm talking about the distinction between wild advantages of biological origin, and non-wild advantages with a biological source.

If the rule is that Neutralize (Biological) intended for non-wild biological "power" advantages ALSO affects wild advantages (no limitations) due to them having a biological 'origin' then it would be weird that the wild advantages would not also get the -5%.

Re:
Neutralize and Static shouldn’t interfere with “wild” advantages that aren’t associated with any power source.
The implication here, by singling out non-associated wild advantages, is that there ARE associated "wild" advantages which have a (power) source-association despite not being a "power" themselves (due to being wild).
Wild advantages are inherently not associated with a power source (I'm not even certain what it would mean for it to have one but not be part of a power thematically speaking). The origin doesn't matter to mechanics and that's good. Neutralize cares about source, or basically the power modifier. Biological as a power source is overexerting your body in a particular way (which is why everything basically works as Extra Effort by costing 1FP) that can be tampered with (semantically, not with Neutralize because it only has tech countermeasures).

As an example, a dragon can breath fire and a half-dragon half-human might be able to breath fire through use of Biological powers. The dragon can do it naturally, easily, with no more effort than a person can punch; Burning Attack 3d (Cone 5). The human can force their odd biological structure to its limits (adding Biological) and breathe fire by spending FP and their biology is particular enough that certain drugs, pathogens, etc can make it impossible to do. The dragon won't be affected since there's nothing special about it's biology, but a drug that makes the entire body go numb (or Affliction: Paralysis) would stop both of them from breathing fire because it stops them from doing a lot of things.

Now, if that doesn't make sense in a given setting, then you can say that the dragon should apply Biological to it's fire breath. And maybe even wings!
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Old 09-26-2020, 05:03 PM   #34
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Default Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones?

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Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
If you just want a ballpark figure, the minimum cost to learn the Manastone spell is 37 (without using the Charm perk).

Magery 2 [25]
10 spells from different colleges [10]
Enchant [1]
Manastone [1]

This gives the character IQ-1 to cast Manastone (and Enchant), which would technically require IQ 16 to attempt to cast it since attempts at enchanting something requires minimum 15 skill for both the spell and Enchant (M16).

Waiving the minimum skill requirement, making the roll at IQ baseline and rounding the total cost up to 40 sounds reasonable to me. The character can only use that advantage to make Manastones, they do so by spending an hour + 5 energy (as per Quick & Dirty Enchanting rules M17) and rolling against IQ. Failures still add quirks while Critical Failures destroy the enchantment and possibly also object (depending on the intention of the character/player).

There's also an argument for making it cost 30, by using Charm (Enchant) to drop the 10 spell prerequisites for Enchant, which would lower the total cost of the default Magic package to [28] and increasing both Enchant and Manastone to IQ costs [2] on top of that.
As is pointed out on the GURPSwiki the Paut Talisman has numerous advantages over a Powerstone...many of which carry over to Manastones.

The biggest is that the Paut Talisman "recharges" while a manastone doesn't. More over unlike powerstones you can use more than one Paut Talisman and they are only effected by the local mana level.

Figuring out the point value of something like this is interesting as the recharge rate is "set" regardless of there being one dose or a 1000 (via Industrial Alchemy).
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Old 09-26-2020, 05:10 PM   #35
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Default Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones?

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Wild advantages are inherently not associated with a power source
Normal-Wild ones aren't...

Exotic-Wild and Supernatural-Wild ones OTOH ... they must specify an Origin...

If the Origin shares the same name as a Source (and every one in Basic Set does share a name with one in Powers) then is that association or not?
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Old 09-26-2020, 06:34 PM   #36
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Default Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Normal-Wild ones aren't...

Exotic-Wild and Supernatural-Wild ones OTOH ... they must specify an Origin...
I'd argue that any advantage (really, any trait) has an origin, it just doesn't always have to be specified. And depending on the setting, you could say any advantage is mundane. It's perfectly reasonable for a dragon to breathe fire in many stories with nothing special about it.

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If the Origin shares the same name as a Source (and every one in Basic Set does share a name with one in Powers) then is that association or not?
All power sources have an origin, but not all origins have sources. Squares and Rectangles.

As for Basic, it only points out a power modifier for a couple of them and blatantly points out that origins are usually just special effects. For instance, its form of Biological makes wings no different than your legs if they are a part of your race template (considering that two legs is a common trait for playable races).
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Old 09-26-2020, 07:20 PM   #37
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Default Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones?

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
I'd argue that any advantage (really, any trait) has an origin, it just doesn't always have to be specified. And depending on the setting, you could say any advantage is mundane. It's perfectly reasonable for a dragon to breathe fire in many stories with nothing special about it.
There's nothing really 'special' about specifying the fire to be biological in nature. Given that GURPS never actually seems to follow the "specify the origin" requirement when statting races/NPCs, I often just assume "biological" in the vast majority of cases, except when it's a robot

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
All power sources have an origin, but not all origins have sources. Squares and Rectangles.
The power source exists if there is a Neutralize or Static which targets that source.

Which would mean any non-powers which list an origin sharing the same name as that source are 'related' to it.

About the only defense I can see for stuff like Origin:Biology is simply that Neutralize: Biological and Static: Biological doesn't exist.

Wild traits don't have to worry about their Origin being related to a Source of a power if there is no -5% countermeasures in that power. If the power can't be stopped, then the related wild abilities couldn't either.

The question is more why you would even allow Wild Advantages to list an origin of the same name as a source for a power modifier which has the -5% countermeasures, because then the WA is vulnerable to neutralize/static without getting a discount for it.

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
As for Basic, it only points out a power modifier for a couple of them and blatantly points out that origins are usually just special effects. For instance, its form of Biological makes wings no different than your legs if they are a part of your race template (considering that two legs is a common trait for playable races).
The so-called "special effect" is basically in respect to choosing other origins: you can analyze DNA to tell a creature has biology-wings, but you can't analyze DNA to tell a creature has magic-wings or psi-wings.

It has no effect if nobody has a DNA sequencer, just like "-5 to use in Low Mana" is a special effect for 99% of the campaign if 99% of the campaign is spent in Normal Mana.
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Old 09-26-2020, 10:45 PM   #38
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Default Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
The power source exists if there is a Neutralize or Static which targets that source.

Which would mean any non-powers which list an origin sharing the same name as that source are 'related' to it.
I'm not sure if you understood what I said, you still seem to be using source and origin interchangeably. For instance, I might have wings that let me fly which is Flight (Winged). If I got them because of magic, they would originate from magic, but if they work because of structure and not because of magic, they wouldn't take the power source because neither countermeaures nor mana levels have any effect on them. However, a mage might have a spell that gives them wings for a minute and that would be Flight (Costs 1 FP, Magical, Winged) and is further limited because they can't fly in a No Mana Zone where I can.
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 09-27-2020, 01:09 AM   #39
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Default Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones?

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
you still seem to be using source and origin interchangeably.
I might have wings that let me fly which is Flight (Winged).
If I got them because of magic, they would originate from magic,
but if they work because of structure and not because of magic, they wouldn't take the power source because neither countermeaures nor mana levels have any effect on them.
I think part of the problem is 'Origin' seems to imply different stuff in Basic and Powers.

I think wings which follow biological law would still be 'related' to magic simply cause magic endowered it.
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Old 09-27-2020, 02:41 AM   #40
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Default Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones?

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I think part of the problem is 'Origin' seems to imply different stuff in Basic and Powers.

I think wings which follow biological law would still be 'related' to magic simply cause magic endowered it.
Powers p179 "Source and origin are not the same thing". And your second line was my point, the wings' origin was magic but that doesn't mean they function the same way "spells" do (advantages with magic as a source). They are related to magic and there might even be leftover magic on the person that can be detected (maybe a silly quirk "Flags as a wizard").
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