GURPS Magic: The Least of Spells

[Sorenant]

An average person with IQ 10 and single point on Ember spell would have it at skill level 9. This gives him a success rate of ~1/3 so he'd need to spend 3 FP to start a fire with it, which is equivalent to sprinting for 45 seconds. Isn't this a little harsh and impractical?
I understand it's not a problem for individuals with Hedge Magician, Magery, or characters with a lot of CP, but for the common folk that these spells seems to be aimed to it doesn't seem like worth the effort of spending 200 hours/point to cast a very tiring spell when simple tools can do the same with ease.
Is there any official rule that could help these people? Neither Time Spent nor Task Difficulty affects spellcasting.

What kind of trait would be best suited for mages that although not really trained on these spells, can improvise them in a pinch thanks to their knowledge of thaumatology? Say a wizard that learned his magic mostly from the Grimoire of True Flame and only knows fire spells, but he understands magic enough that he could try casting any IQ/A spells.
I was thinking Cosmic Power (Least Spells Only, -40%; Requires Thaumatology Roll, -10%) [5] which is a bargain compared to buying multiple spells at one point each but can't be used as freely as a truly learned spell.


Finally, could there be a IQ/A version of Apportation, maybe that only holds the object in place rather than move around? Some sort of spell for mages to hold their books on air and flip without moving their hands, allowing them to read in a comfortable position or just to flaunt their magic?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

An average person with IQ 10 and single point on Ember spell would have it at skill level 9. This gives him a success rate of ~1/3 so he'd need to spend 3 FP to start a fire with it, which is equivalent to sprinting for 45 seconds. Isn't this a little harsh and impractical?

Depends on the TL. It's much better than a firebow (TL0, Low-Tech, p. 35) and arguably better than flint (same). It also doesn't require any equipment.

[Tyneras]

If one uses solo ceremonial casting (Pyramid 28, p.19) and waives the need to know the spell at 15+ (reasonable for IQ/A spells) then a peasant could probably get enough bonuses for a solid +2 or +3 depending on the spell.

If I had a time machine and could rewrite Magic, I'd just let time spent apply to spells and just have hedge wizards and apprentices take forever to cast anything.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

An average person with IQ 10 and single point on Ember spell would have it at skill level 9. This gives him a success rate of ~1/3 so he'd need to spend 3 FP to start a fire with it, which is equivalent to sprinting for 45 seconds. Isn't this a little harsh and impractical?

It's faster than mundane methods, even with the extended casting time low-skill individuals need. It's also no more tiring than a prepared fire block (using Survival with the same skill investment), though equipment does make mundane fire-lighting easier. The spell's utility (but not cool factor) will drop from TL4+ but at low TLs it's actually a very good source of fire compared to mundane options, as John Dallman notes.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

If one uses solo ceremonial casting (Pyramid 28, p.19) and waives the need to know the spell at 15+ (reasonable for IQ/A spells) then a peasant could probably get enough bonuses for a solid +2 or +3 depending on the spell.

If I had a time machine and could rewrite Magic, I'd just let time spent apply to spells and just have hedge wizards and apprentices take forever to cast anything.

I would also consider having using extra energy to buy skill something that applies to normal spell casting and not just ceremonial magic, so in dire circumstances mages can burn resources to buy success, just as others can do with extra effort.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Depends on the TL. It's much better than a firebow (TL0, Low-Tech, p. 35) and arguably better than flint (same). It also doesn't require any equipment.

LT gives 2min (2/3 FP) for Firebow and 30 seconds for Flint. The spell is much faster but it requires much more training, 200 hours for 1 point compared to the common and more broadly useful Housekeeping and Survival skills, and is much more tiring, 1 FP at best compared to slightly to none when using Flint.
A family without any fire-starting tool at home seems very unlikely, a flint costs just $2. If they're so poor they don't have any, then I'm unsure they'd be able to afford the time (and maybe expense) of training the spell.

Originally Posted by Rupert

It's faster than mundane methods, even with the extended casting time low-skill individuals need. It's also no more tiring than a prepared fire block (using Survival with the same skill investment), though equipment does make mundane fire-lighting easier. The spell's utility (but not cool factor) will drop from TL4+ but at low TLs it's actually a very good source of fire compared to mundane options, as John Dallman notes.

I don't think the average person would have multiple points in Survival skill, maybe with the exception of TL0-1. I believe most would use the fire-starting tools with Housekeeping skill, which is IQ/E and constantly being used for all sort of things through their daily lives. The spell on the other hand requires hundreds of dedicated hours to even start casting semi-reliably and for most it will take 2~3 FP in average. I don't think the average person would see the spell as worthy of their time.

Originally Posted by Tyneras

If one uses solo ceremonial casting (Pyramid 28, p.19) and waives the need to know the spell at 15+ (reasonable for IQ/A spells) then a peasant could probably get enough bonuses for a solid +2 or +3 depending on the spell.

If I had a time machine and could rewrite Magic, I'd just let time spent apply to spells and just have hedge wizards and apprentices take forever to cast anything.

That requires an optional rule and a house rule, my question was regarding to the basic assumptions of the magic system which I assume the book used when being written.
If you were to include optional rules, the Sympathetic Materials from Thaumatology might work better. The book says casting magic within a circle of ashes gives the spell +1, if a flint can give +1 or +2 bonus for being very related to the spell, the effective skill level of the caster raises enough to make single casting success reliable. The time required to learn the spell would still be a barrier, though.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

LT gives 2min (2/3 FP) for Firebow and 30 seconds for Flint. The spell is much faster but it requires much more training, 200 hours for 1 point compared to the common and more broadly useful Housekeeping and Survival skills, and is much more tiring, 1 FP at best compared to slightly to none when using Flint.
A family without any fire-starting tool at home seems very unlikely, a flint costs just $2. If they're so poor they don't have any, then I'm unsure they'd be able to afford the time (and maybe expense) of training the spell.

Housekeeping is Easy, Survival is Average. Thus for the same point investment using Survival you'd need to roll just as many times, and with Housekeeping 2/3rds as many. Note that not all places have flint or flint-like stones readily available, and have to make do with various friction devices. And again, compared to the spell these are slow. They are also more susceptible to damp, and if you lose your gear due to some accident, you're down to an improvised firebow or friction block, and probably a long and exhausting session of rubbing sticks together - not good if you're already fatigued from falling into an icy river or the like.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Housekeeping is Easy, Survival is Average. Thus for the same point investment using Survival you'd need to roll just as many times, and with Housekeeping 2/3rds as many. Note that not all places have flint or flint-like stones readily available, and have to make do with various friction devices. And again, compared to the spell these are slow. They are also more susceptible to damp, and if you lose your gear due to some accident, you're down to an improvised firebow or friction block, and probably a long and exhausting session of rubbing sticks together - not good if you're already fatigued from falling into an icy river or the like.

I'm not arguing that it's a bad investment for a player or an adventurous character. What I'm saying is that any person learns Housekeeping just by going through their lives and it allows them to use the fire starting tool of their location. Not everyone knows Survival to begin with (again, with the exception of TL0 societies) and it has many other uses beside starting fire.
The tools are tiring and takes time to use, but it doesn't require months of study. The time and resources spent on learning IQ/A spells could be instead used to learn trade skills like Smithing which is IQ/A or working to make a living.
The special conditions you mention are rare for someone living a normal peaceful live. Casting Ember with SL-9 costs in average 3 FP compared to average 4 FP of rubbing sticks together with SL-10 Housekeeping, so it's not significantly less tiring. It's definitely faster, so it has an edge when time is a concern but again that's a rare situation for a normal person which I don't think justify learning the skill.

Edit: Is it reasonable to expect an average person to have multiple points on an IQ/A spell? Merchant, Politics and Streetwise are all IQ/A skills that could be useful to anybody, yet it's not something one would expect an average person to, in GURPS terms, have even a single point on it.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

If one uses solo ceremonial casting (Pyramid 28, p.19) and waives the need to know the spell at 15+ (reasonable for IQ/A spells) then a peasant could probably get enough bonuses for a solid +2 or +3 depending on the spell.

If I had a time machine and could rewrite Magic, I'd just let time spent apply to spells and just have hedge wizards and apprentices take forever to cast anything.

Originally Posted by Rupert

I would also consider having using extra energy to buy skill something that applies to normal spell casting and not just ceremonial magic, so in dire circumstances mages can burn resources to buy success, just as others can do with extra effort.

Not just these, but also allowing common TDMs to apply to magic use. Getting a +4 or even +10 to use spells in utterly regular situations would go a long way even just for Least Spells. Ember might be so trivial to use that no roll is required just like no roll is required to find the corner store or walk a dog, only FP.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Not just these, but also allowing common TDMs to apply to magic use. Getting a +4 or even +10 to use spells in utterly regular situations would go a long way even just for Least Spells. Ember might be so trivial to use that no roll is required just like no roll is required to find the corner store or walk a dog, only FP.

I can't find it now but I swear I've seem Kromm saying TDMs doesn't apply to magic.

By the way, I got around reading Mailanka's review linked in this thread and he wrote my thoughts better than I've ever could.