Assumptions about Elves

[shawnhcorey]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Forest gardens in temperate woodlands should allow for a population comparable to medieval agriculture though.

Altho the research is sketchy, permaculture seems to produce about as much food as modern agriculture. With a very long life to perfect their techniques, elves should be able to outproduce medieval agriculture.

[Black Leviathan]

Some assumptions I work with based on elve's legendary longevity.
- Elves don't evolve well, don't adjust to cultural change. Their generations are very long so they are a people that resist social or environmental change and becomes alarmed easily in situations that seem unstable.
-Elves struggle with a generation gap much wider than other races. It is challenging to build understanding between parents and children and it would be a focus of their culture but often it's not possible for one generation to understand the other, or the other many generations that live simultaneously so it's likely normal for elves to move away from family and develop strong peer bonds with other elves.
-Elves would be annoyed with poorly made things in any aspect of their lives. They come from a culture with very little scarcity where artisans have basically forever to refine their crafts. For a human, boots that hold up for two years would be a pretty good pair, but for an Elf they'd be garbage. Consequently elven goods would be very durable, very well designed and articulated. They may not be the best and are certainly expensive, but they're made to last, to remain in style, to hold up to time.
-Elves don't have birthdays or don't think about them much. Elves are less focused on counting their short time in the world that other races. They wouldn't be impressed by a seasonal rotation out of so many. They may celebrate transitions like becoming an adult or being accepted as an apprentice, but birthdays and anniversaries probably wouldn't be a cause to make people gather or bake a cake.
-Elves probably have mountains of nick-nacks. Elves can acquire huge fortunes in their long lives and have to drive to accomplish those things so they're not likely very focused on income or even reaching career goals. But they would value the memories, especially if parent and child separates over distance or if peers you had spent decades with one another go on to serve in another community. Small forget-me-not gifts would be very common in elven society to help them remember those moments. In fact I imagine such trinkets would be it's own art form in elven societies, small portraits with decorative frames, preserved bouquets, flowers pressed in glass artful little reminders of the good times, because in a long life there's a lot of time for things to be not-so good. The problem is these nick-nacks aren't easy to let go of, and in a long life you acquire them often.
-Elves likely have ZERO Fear of Missing Out. FOMO wouldn't be a thing for elves as so much of existence is cyclic. Most elves would understand if not see that no opportunity is unique and some other chance like it will come along if you're patient and watchful. Impulsive behavior would likely be harshly criticized in eleven societies as immature thinking.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

Every place on Earth receives the same amount of sunlight in a year. But in some places, it's not daily.

Every place might get the same number of hours of sunlight over a year. But closer to the poles, that light is is less intense, as a certain solid arc of sunlight spreads out over more Earth surface area.

[David Johnston2]

Back when I was running D&D one of the things I decided on for elves was that the elf "kings" and "queens" could only remain in power as long as they remained respected. They would be subtly but irresistibly forced to abdicate when support of them fell too low and a new most respected elf would then be crowned. Skulduggery aimed at the crown would consist of schemes to make them look foolish because in that culture a practical joke was as good as an assassination attempt as a means of creating a vacancy.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Realistically, unless their medical technology or magic is rather better than ours they could be Unaging and still only live a few centuries anyway, especially if they're living a robust outdoorsy lifestyle. Accidents and misadventure will see to that.

That depends what else is on the Elvish template.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Back when I was running D&D one of the things I decided on for elves was that the elf "kings" and "queens" could only remain in power as long as they remained respected. They would be subtly but irresistibly forced to abdicate when support of them fell too low and a new most respected elf would then be crowned. Skulduggery aimed at the crown would consist of schemes to make them look foolish because in that culture a practical joke was as good as an assassination attempt as a means of creating a vacancy.

I've also come to the conclusion that elvish "monarchs" rule through personal qualifications and public memory of great deeds in turbulent times.

[Hide]

What's up!

Originally Posted by (E)

(...) Does anyone else have any ideas along these or similar lines to throw into the pot?

Maybe these ideas help you:

Roughly speaking about genetics, longevity is partly achieved thanks to the quality of the genetic information and the quality of its replication in a subject. In order to regenerate itself and sustain life, organisms (at cell level) constantly replicate their genetic information; said information often degenerates as time goes on, thus the process of aging takes place and in return it shortens the subject’s life-span (for example, if the organism cannot sustain its essential functions).

Part of the genetic information involved with longevity lies in the telomeres alleles. I remember reading that the problem of early clones (such as Dolly the sheep), was shorter life spans when compared to “originals”; the problem was attributed to the telomeres alleles. This is how I understood it back then: The alleles roughly represent the number of times a cell’s DNA can be restored before it becomes “useless”. The quality of the alleles was not that good in the clones, so they had shorter life spans.

Another factor involved with longevity is the diet. Not the diet as a recipe to determine what to eat and what not, but rather as the habits involved in normal life (sleep, nutrition, education, exercising, etc.).

So, regarding elves, you could say that they have “very good genes” and also that they have discovered the perfect diet for their organisms. The latter being a result of their genetically longer life-spans. Maybe if they eat the right things and do the right things you get the impression elves live forever, unless they have an accident or an extreme disease.

In conclusion, elves have conciliated their bodies with their habits, and this has interesting impacts in their societies.

If elves were biologically similar to humans, then they have found the means to preserve and purify the air and water they consume. They have found which foods prevent them from catching disease, which foods prevent the oxidation of their bodies and which provide nutrition to have healthy hair, skin and so on. They also know what physical activities keep them in good shape without deteriorating their bodies (for example dancing). And perhaps this is the reason elves worry too much about preserving their habitats, because breaking them would also break their people. All of these things they have tried have been proven to be right, and it is what ultimately built their cultures. And since they live longer, then they can continue with their research, they can promote knowledge and see it appropriated by their people first handedly.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Hide

Part of the genetic information involved with longevity lies in the alleles. I remember reading that the problem of early clones (such as Dolly the sheep), was shorter life spans when compared to “originals”; the problem was attributed to the alleles. This is how I understood it back then: The alleles roughly represent the number of times a cell’s DNA can be restored before it becomes “useless”. The quality of the alleles was not that good in the clones, so they had shorter life spans.

You may be thinking of telomeres, not alleles, and it's their length or number rather than their quality which is important for longevity.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

-Elves struggle with a generation gap much wider than other races. It is challenging to build understanding between parents and children and it would be a focus of their culture but often it's not possible for one generation to understand the other, or the other many generations that live simultaneously so it's likely normal for elves to move away from family and develop strong peer bonds with other elves.

Humans are fertile for roughly 20 years, i.e. between 20 and 40, and come into child-bearing age after roughly 20 years, i.e. from age 20. Therefore human generations in a family tree fall into fairly neat-ish layers, with grandparents and their siblings being all roughly the same age, grandchildren roughly the same age, and so on. Some overlap does occur, but it's the exception rather than the rule- "My uncle is younger than me!" is possible, but notable for its rarity.

This order might be upset with elves. Say they become fertile at age 50 but remain so for 200 years. A mother might have 5 children 50 years apart, so that by the time she has her youngest, her oldest is already themself a great-grandparent, and she has grandchildren who are older than her own child. Therefore, as you say, elves would form stronger bonds with their age-peer group than with their own siblings or cousins.

However, I'm not convinced they'd have a "generation gap" problem. Their society would have evolved with these generations blended together, so there would be social mechanisms to cope with this somehow.

[(E)]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

As long lived to effective I mortality would put a strong emphasis sunstanability land husbandry.

Yes this seems to a common thread, it's definitely worth inclusion in a this iteration which will be more generic.

Originally Posted by Crystalline_Entity

I should start by saying my mental conception of Elves is rather Tolkienesque.

I'm going to weigh things in favour of Tolkien's interpretation

Originally Posted by Crystalline_Entity

My interpretation of Elves is that they're not so much at a lower tech level, but at a divergent tech level; where humans are TL 3, Elves might be TL 0+3, or 1+2. If you assume magic is rare in humans and more common in Elves (which depends very much on your setting), humans presumably prioritise technological solutions over magical ones as that's easier. Elves may be the other way around, they'll go for magical solutions over technological ones as that's less trouble for them, as magic is more readily available.

You could tune that for different areas of technology, maybe humans are at TL 3, but Elven weapons are TL 2 because they've not fought a war in hundreds of years, but Elven communications technology is 2+3 due to magical assistance. Wood Elves presumably either have a very low population density and nomadism, or some very high TL agriculture (or magical assistance) to support themselves in the woods; other sorts of Elves such as High Elves might have more human-like agriculture which supports them living in cities with breathtaking architecture.

I'd maybe add "Elves can control their own fertility" (either as an innate ability or with magic or drugs) to explain why a long-lived race hasn't overpopulated their area of control yet.

Yeah, variant technology seems likely, my own game world has elves as loosely 2+1(High quality/skill and Magic) as the shorthand to describe the base TL for them.

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Or good dentists. I lean toward them being only slightly long-lived- two or three centuries at most, for the purposes of this kind of exercise at least. If they live for millenia then their psychology and society become too alien to reasonably consider.

This could go either way. If they have longevity and low fertility, they may not ever get enough "data points" to discern patterns of inheritance. On the other hand, long lived botanists and animal breeders will be able to observe many more generations of selective breeding trials in plant and animal species than shorter-lived experimenters.


Okay, but what effect would this have on your calculations? Is it something that you considered for the dwarves or orcs?

However, depending on the particular method of inheritance chosen, this could lead to huge ramifications for their society. Having summer elves and winter elves be different races determined by the season of their birth would have a very different effect than having elves who determine their child's phenotype by singing to it in the womb, for two possible examples.

Maybe it's their fertility that needs to be turned on- by seeking blessings from the Goddess of Fertility or only by mating in the Sacred Grove.

Life span wise I personally lean towards a longer lived race, but two people have indicated a preference for a shorter lived species, so I'll weigh it up.

With regards to identifying genetic inheritance, I was most concerned with how it relates to plants and animals.

I chose not to cover non-genetic expression with the dwarves and avoided the issue with the lower level of depth in the orc example, elves however seen to come in a wide range of varieties in fiction and especially in gaming so the issue at least needs to be aired before making a decision.

Originally Posted by Rupert

They grow new ones, like sharks or crocodiles.

Which human norm? Modern westerners? Early medieval peasants? Japanese peasants?

This is one assumption I am now reconsidering, leaving the dietary requirements as close to human might work best, though there is a theme running suggesting a low grain preference.

Originally Posted by Rupert

My 'standard fantasy' worlds usually have one group of elves like this. Others are more settled (and many of those are simply the elite, living on the fruits of others' labour).

Given that elves live a long, long time, after the first few horrible mistakes they are probably better about sustainable land management. Their forests will have the right mix of species to thrive, and they'll slowly move as farmland is allowed to return to woodlands, and forests are cleared for new farmland, and so on.

There may be complete dustbowls where they originally came from, if their first attempts didn't turn out well, possibly also mana-dead, or with strange distortions in the mana-field from overuse of magic to boost production and keep water flowing after natural source had been used up.

Sustainability and good to excellent land management are definitely assumptions for this particular write up, other hypothetical or future write ups will probably go the other way. The mana-blasted area is also an interesting addition, if nothing else it will illustrate the issues of magic reliance.

Originally Posted by MWnRNC

I think, for most popular conceptions of Elves, magic plays a greater role in agriculture than this statement suggests. While their homelands often appear natural and rustic, they are so heavily enchanted that it is possible for the Elves to live "post-scarcity" lifestyles akin to hunter-gatherers without needing to farm at all. When they need to eat, they just walk to a nearby magical tree and pluck its magically nutritious fruit that is produced in magical abundance in all seasons. Water comes from magical springs. For meat, they engage in sustainable hunts (with magic weapons).

Incorporating magic is a tricky issue, but one that will have to handled, the simplest way of handling it will be stating something like "Agricultural and Hunter Gathering yield X more". The post scarcity idea might work best to represent the eventual goal for Elven agriculture.

Originally Posted by ericthered

I'll admit, I've always conceived of default elves having a paleo (from living off the land) to aristocratic (elves are based on the fae) diet, which would indicate a lot of fruit, something in the way of nuts and odd vegetables, a lot of meat, and not much grain. I've seen it done different ways, of course, but that's what feels most natural to me.


I've seen the Elven fertility rate explained as the entire pregnancy needing to happen close to a source of magic. Without the magic, miscarriage or simply not conceiving in the first place is almost assured.

Yeah, low grain will be an assumption. A high meat diet does seem to fit in some ways, but I might steer away from that because the last write up was the carnivorous orcs.