Air Jet damage

[Rolando]

Calling it "Knock back Damage" would mean nd's hexes of knock back, not roll "damage" to calculate Knock back (at ST-2).

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Rolando

Calling it "Knock back Damage" would mean nd's hexes of knock back, not roll "damage" to calculate Knock back (at ST-2).

if that were the case I don't think they would bother with 'damage' at all, just say "yards of knockback".

The idea that an air jet would knock back ST 1 creatures and ST 100 creatures an equal number of yards seems pretty iffy to me, comparing to the ST-2 multiples sounds like the more reasonably interpretation.

Since this isn't a resistible spell I don't think you'd need to spend more energy to affect high SM creatures, OTOH, since you're just creating an environmental effect that interferes with them (ie similarly would not need x2 energy to hurt a SM+1 creature with a fireball)

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by Plane

I'm glad this thread made me take a closer look at Shape Air on M24. It seems a lot better in many situations for keeping enemies back. It gets 5x better range, and actually has a better maximum capacity for knockback since you could spend 10 energy to get 5d compared to 3 energy to get 3d for Air Jet. This could change for Air Magery 6+ of course (Magery and Effect).

Air jet does 2d per point of energy, not 1d.

so a max Air jet does 6d damage for knockback purpose and only cost 3 FP while a max Shape Air does 5d and cost 10 FP.

[Ejidoth]

For what it's worth, Air Jet is one of the spells that was also converted to an advantage to work in GURPS Thaumatology: Sorcery.

There, the way the '2d knockback damage' is built is as Crushing Attack 1d (Blockable; Cosmic, Does knockback-based damage against diffuse targets; Double Knockback; Increased 1/2D, 2x; Increased Range, 2x; Jet; No Blunt Trauma; No Wounding, except versus diffuse targets; Sorcery).

(left out the enhancement/limitation values so I'm not just copy-pasting information from a book that, ideally, people should buy)

[Plane]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

Air jet does 2d per point of energy, not 1d.

so a max Air jet does 6d damage for knockback purpose and only cost 3 FP while a max Shape Air does 5d and cost 10 FP.

Good catch, I misremembered while cross-referencing, guess that makes it better per-second always but still loses out for long-term relocation of light objects over a duration. Plus it benefits sooner from Magery 4/5 for 8d/10d while Reshape needs Magery 6 to go up to 6d where Jet's at 12d.

Originally Posted by Ejidoth

Air Jet is one of the spells that was also converted to an advantage to work in GURPS Thaumatology: Sorcery.

There, the way the '2d knockback damage' is built is as Crushing Attack 1d (Blockable; Cosmic, Does knockback-based damage against diffuse targets; Double Knockback; Increased 1/2D, 2x; Increased Range, 2x; Jet; No Blunt Trauma; No Wounding, except versus diffuse targets; Sorcery).

*rereads 12-13*
One thing I didn't think about until this pointed it out is how this bypasses the damage cap of 2 HP for Diffuse foes. I don't think the Air Jet spell ever actually specified that, possibly a unique benefit of the sorcery?

No Wounding being half value seems like it's treating "only vs Diffuse Targets" as a -50% Accessibility and then using it like an Either-Or Limitation... are diffuse foes really so frequent as to be worth that much?

The cosmic here is a VERY interesting construction...

Using the either/or approach would remove 'No Wounding' already, so I think what this modifier effectively does is bring the remainder of the damage (not just the knockback portion up to) x2 damage (+100% damage) since the base is 1d but you're inflicting 2d for purpose of subtracting from DR to determine Penetrating Damage.

+100% damage being a +100% enhancement (even a non-cosmic one) is something that could make sense... but then it's more like you're just getting +80% since you don't need Double Knockback anymore (otherwise you'd have Quadruple Knockback).

If -50% value for "diffuse targets only" (limited enhancement) it should be +40% though. Is the extra 10% for the "ignore injury cap" idea?

Area Effect 1 yard is +25% so maybe reducing it to 10% reflects how it lacks many of the usual benefits of AE like must-change-hex-to-dodge or "affects multiple foes" ? On the other hand you do get benefits from not having AE (ability to bypass allies sharing hex with enemy) but AE is seen as a net effect even if you don't take Selective Area.

[Rolando]

Originally Posted by Plane

if that were the case I don't think they would bother with 'damage' at all, just say "yards of knockback".

The idea that an air jet would knock back ST 1 creatures and ST 100 creatures an equal number of yards seems pretty iffy to me, comparing to the ST-2 multiples sounds like the more reasonably interpretation.

Since this isn't a resistible spell I don't think you'd need to spend more energy to affect high SM creatures, OTOH, since you're just creating an environmental effect that interferes with them (ie similarly would not need x2 energy to hurt a SM+1 creature with a fireball)

That is what I mean. That is why the spell is described as it is described and not called "Knock Back Damage".

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Rolando

That is what I mean. That is why the spell is described as it is described and not called "Knock Back Damage".

I'm not sure I'm grasping how you think the dice operate for these two spells, could you use an example to highlight differences you think might be there?

[Rolando]

Both spells work the same. Roll a number of dice, treat it as crushing damage to calculate knock back (ST-2) but it is not damage.

I mentioned the statement above in reference to a comment of calling it just "2d knock back" per energy point. That would be wrong because it would mean a completely different and over the top ability as 2d knock back would mean 2d yards of knock back. That is why the air spells use the term "damage", because you have to use the total as total damage to calculate knock back.

English is not my main language, this most be a language think as I feel it clear but clearly I'm not explaining myself clearly :)

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Rolando

Both spells work the same. Roll a number of dice, treat it as crushing damage to calculate knock back (ST-2) but it is not damage

B378 has Crushing/Cutting use same knockback rules.

It's kinda weird an impaling attack which doesn't penetrate DR can't cause it.

I get that's probably to stop arrows from causing knockback, but I could see a spear-on-shield knocking someone back. My guess they added it in LT somewhere but I forgot where.

Air Jet does damage, just non-wounding (cept diffuse) and presumably also "no blunt trauma" (like in sorcery) damage.

Like in theory if someone did a "power parry" against it, they could subtract from the damage.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

It's kinda weird an impaling attack which doesn't penetrate DR can't cause it.

An impaling attack that is completely stopped by DR likely doesn't have a good angle since DR often includes 'slide' with worn armor. If you stabbed someone with a spear for 8 damage who was wearing DR9 plate, I think the spear isn't hitting squarely enough to move them because part of how the armor works is precisely to stop hits from hitting squarely. A crushing attack is 'big' enough that the DR more likely absorbs the blow against a mace and it will move you around. Mind, I could see it being some fraction of damage; If a regular human somehow had DR40 and stopped a 40 damage ballista bolt, it likely would move them some amount.