Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-18-2013, 06:38 AM   #31
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyv, Ukraine
Default Re: Nanofabricators, DRM and Forced Scarcity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langy View Post
Which doesn't help if you can't program them or you consider them illegal, since they're effectively slaves.
Unlikely in a scenario where the government does, or turns a blind eye to corps doing, the rest of the oppressive stuff that puts much of the population into debt slavery.

Also, what is this 'cannot program'? We're talking about a post-nanotech-revolution setting; nanodrugs and psychosurgery FTW!
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 06:46 AM   #32
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyv, Ukraine
Default Re: Nanofabricators, DRM and Forced Scarcity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seneschal View Post
"Bioroids" was always a puzzling category to me. It's like treating in-vitro fertilized humans as slaves because being made differently strips them of human rights, capacity for sapience be damned. I never found it convincing how THS defined them; it felt like a convoluted way to introduce replicants from Blade Runner and synthetics from Alien into the setting.
I think you're approaching the issue from the wrong angles. You see bioroids as humans grown* in vitro, and thus group them with humans in terms of rights. But they're more properly described as robots assembled from organic components, and thus grouped with AIs** in terms of rights.
People who advocate for freedom of bioroids but not AIs are missing the fact that both are sapient/intelligent entities, and are following biochauvinistic biases.

Also, the issues of slavery are suddenly no longer black-and-white when you make bioroids who are genuinely happier doing their jobs than humans are leading their leisurely lives.

* == In truth, they're nano-assembled, not grown in the traditional sense.
** == The other significant group of intelligent tools.
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 06:51 AM   #33
Langy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
Default Re: Nanofabricators, DRM and Forced Scarcity

They may not have sapient AIs nor have they developed bioroid technology. Remember, we're trying to develop an interesting setting - saying 'oh, but this technology would make it so there's no point in anyone ever doing anything' is unhelpful except to say 'then that technology does not exist in the setting' or something similar.
Langy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 06:56 AM   #34
Langy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
Default Re: Nanofabricators, DRM and Forced Scarcity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
In that case it is not true that IP is the only valuable commodity, which means abandoning the premise of the setting. Besides: if you have these wonderful make-anything machines making everything, why is human labour scarce enough to be valuable?

I think these settings are all very well for a cautionary tale, an "If This Goes On" about current trends in IP law and DRM, but they aren't really very interesting because they don't stand up to being thought about.
Sure, it means that both people and money are still valuable, but I doubt that it was intended that they weren't. Instead, what was intended was that physical goods were cheap; services may be comparatively expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky molokh
Unlikely in a scenario where the government does, or turns a blind eye to corps doing, the rest of the oppressive stuff that puts much of the population into debt slavery.

Also, what is this 'cannot program'? We're talking about a post-nanotech-revolution setting; nanodrugs and psychosurgery FTW!
Why does the government/corp have to be 'evil' to want to regulate the nanofabricators? They could have extremely good reasons for doing so (such as the ones I mentioned about them being useful for WMD creation and for completely destroying society in short order if they were unregulated).
Langy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 07:09 AM   #35
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
Ze'Manel Cunha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Default Re: Nanofabricators, DRM and Forced Scarcity

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
What for? If you need that, you fabricate robots or bioroids to do this stuff. Even if the setting somehow lacks decent AI, the nanotech revolution, which is required for nanofabs, also enables construction of bioroids.
It's all about price points, if a robot/bioroid costs you $50k to purchase from you local corner nanofac which you don't have, but you can pay Joe down the street $500 a week, you're going to hire Joe until you have a steady enough income to get financing to buy the robot, even though once you do own it you'll only be paying $100 a week in upkeep for it.

On top of purchase price and weekly upkeep for the robot/bioroid, financing is also a massive factor, if it takes the place of a single $500 a week worker, then at car interest rates it'd take 40 years to pay for itself, which is a bad investment, even if it takes the place of three $500 a week workers it'd only pay for itself in 5 years which is also a dubious investment.

Same applies for manufacturing something on site vs shipping it in from off-world, if your nanofac is going to be more expensive to manufacture on-site due to limited production capability, product may be made off-planet in a richer world's bigger nanofac.
Ze'Manel Cunha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 07:11 AM   #36
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyv, Ukraine
Default Re: Nanofabricators, DRM and Forced Scarcity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langy View Post
Why does the government/corp have to be 'evil' to want to regulate the nanofabricators? They could have extremely good reasons for doing so (such as the ones I mentioned about them being useful for WMD creation and for completely destroying society in short order if they were unregulated).
Because it's a case of the slippery A Bit (or Lot) Of Liberty for A Bit Of Security? Terrorists will have custom-built/rooted/modified nanofabs; regular decent citizens will have to suffer for a negligible gain of security.

To make there be zero Open Source / Public Domain stuff? That basically means that patents never expire, IP charity is prohibited etc. etc.

Sounds like either willingly making a Dystopia, or making a Straw Dystopia, depending on nuances.
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 07:23 AM   #37
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyv, Ukraine
Default Re: Nanofabricators, DRM and Forced Scarcity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
It's all about price points, if a robot/bioroid costs you $50k to purchase from you local corner nanofac which you don't have, but you can pay Joe down the street $500 a week, you're going to hire Joe until you have a steady enough income to get financing to buy the robot, even though once you do own it you'll only be paying $100 a week in upkeep for it.
For a citizen, sure. For a big corp, making robots/bioroids is likely to be more cost-efficient than hiring people. After all, hired people are also more of a security risk, have higher safety standards etc.

Assuming that an average job at TL9 earns $3,600 per month (normal for this TL), and that a bioroid costs $150,000 (this is a bit on the high end, such as some specialist models), a bioroid with Status 0 upkeep will pay for itself in 50 months = slightly over 4 years. The important bit is that it keeps paying for itself after those 4-5 years. Even if we assume a short-lifetime bioroid (e.g. 25 years due to Short Lifespan 1 [-10] + Self-Destruct [-10]).

A 24% annual return on interest seems like a good deal compared to many other options.
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 10:13 AM   #38
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
Ze'Manel Cunha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Default Re: Nanofabricators, DRM and Forced Scarcity

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Assuming that an average job at TL9 earns $3,600 per month (normal for this TL), and that a bioroid costs $150,000 (this is a bit on the high end, such as some specialist models), a bioroid with Status 0 upkeep will pay for itself in 50 months = slightly over 4 years. The important bit is that it keeps paying for itself after those 4-5 years. Even if we assume a short-lifetime bioroid (e.g. 25 years due to Short Lifespan 1 [-10] + Self-Destruct [-10]).

A 24% annual return on interest seems like a good deal compared to many other options.
Your numbers don't add up at all, are you counting the initial upfront capital costs of purchasing the bioroid/robot as free money?

In order to get a payout in 50 months you're saying a $0 upkeep for the Bioroid/Robot, are you saying they need neither food/energy nor servicing/storage?
Ze'Manel Cunha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 10:17 AM   #39
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyv, Ukraine
Default Re: Nanofabricators, DRM and Forced Scarcity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Your numbers don't add up at all, are you counting the initial upfront capital costs of purchasing the bioroid/robot as free money?
I'm counting the capital cost of purchase as the original investment (normalised at $150k, though in practice you get less for more human-like models and more for highly augmented ones).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
In order to get a payout in 50 months you're saying a $0 upkeep for the Bioroid/Robot, are you saying they need neither food/energy nor servicing/storage?
I subtracted the Status 0 upkeep from the money a bioroid makes for its owner. I suspect many are kept at less than Status 0, though the savings are minimal compared to the overall monthly income.
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 10:46 AM   #40
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
Ze'Manel Cunha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Default Re: Nanofabricators, DRM and Forced Scarcity

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I'm counting the capital cost of purchase as the original investment (normalised at $150k, though in practice you get less for more human-like models and more for highly augmented ones).
An outlay of $150k will cost you as a capital expenditure, on top of the interest you have to pay on that money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I subtracted the Status 0 upkeep from the money a bioroid makes for its owner. I suspect many are kept at less than Status 0, though the savings are minimal compared to the overall monthly income.
I'd be very surprised if you could keep it to just $600 a month, but even so it'd take you 66 months, not 50, at which point you'd have the bioroid/robot paid off and could begin paying for the capital expenditure.

Running the numbers given, I get a match-out at 24 years, with a final profit of $45k for the bioroid/robot before it stops functioning at 25 years.
That's a bad business choice.

The numbers I ran using 10% a year, compounded daily, give me $150k capital being worth $1,761,732.09 after 25 years.
The robot/bioroid, with profits also being compounded daily at 10% a year, being worth $1,806,859.28 after 25 years.

Due to initial capital risk outlay alone the bioroid/robot isn't worth it.
Ze'Manel Cunha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
drm, nanofabricator, scarcity, sci-fi, spaceships

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.