Diffuse and armor

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

Discovered an interesting precedent for the grappling Q today

"You can use your TK Grab on liquid as if it were a solid object, without the need for a container"

This is a perk called Hydrokinesis on PP56.

The implication here I think being that diffuse things like water are "non-solid" and thus immune to grappling.

Yet there IS some way to grapple it, with whatever this perk is meant to represent.

Unfortunately there's rarely an 'under the hood' for the perks so we could be left guessing as to the coding for them.

Since this is for a leveled trait, I'm thinking maybe somehow a 'rules exemption' perk?

If I remember right, that perk is just "Accessory: Bucket for TK". I think it makes the most sense that things that entirely encapsulate an object would be able to grapple a Diffuse being which I would require being an explicit enhancement for Binding. It could also be a perk for grappling things your SM -7 or smaller to represent something like webbed hands, perfectly lines up fingers, a bucket hand, etc.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

If I remember right, that perk is just "Accessory: Bucket for TK".

A bucket of adjustible and potentially infinite size though, since it could scale up to whatever ST your TK is at? I guess I'd understand it better if it were a leveled perk to reflect needing larger diameter/volume to hold geometric increases in water as weight climbs.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I think it makes the most sense that things that entirely encapsulate an object would be able to grapple a Diffuse being which I would require being an explicit enhancement for Binding.

At it's most enhanced level (Swarm) Diffuse seems to operate no better than Insubstantial, so I'm wondering if just getting Affects Insubstantial would be enough for us to call it a day.

Swarms can spread out over many hexes and there are sometimes grappling penalties depending on SM differences in grappler and grapplee...

If we require Swarm to take up an entire hex (+4 to hit per B414) then perhaps non-enhanced Diffuse endows some limited variability moving between SM0 and SM+3 ?

B402's SMAR has +1 to hit with a grappler per +1SM you have over foe, due to having longer arms. Not sure if that gives a bonus for giants "Using Your Legs" grapples at -2 DX though.

I don't see anything here about working in reverse (low SM have trouble grappling larger targets, due to having shorter arms which can't wrap around them). What do people think of this idea?

I'm not even sure if B402's SMAR bonus for giants to grapple munchkins is even meant to be a net bonus. I'm not sure if it's meant to replace (-1 becomes +1) or cancel out (-1+1=0) the penalty you have to hit small foes listed on B19.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

It could also be a perk for grappling things your SM -7 or smaller to represent something like webbed hands, perfectly lines up fingers, a bucket hand, etc.

Is there an inability to grapple small objects at some point? Kromm even suggested at one point bottoming out the SM penalty to minus 4 to hit them (I dunno... I have a really hard time punching flies to death mid-flight, I usually seem to miss or they roll with my blow and survive)

Maybe houseflies have Increased Time Rate and can use Roll With Blow once per turn to quarter damage from me? I just seem to propel them like I'm merely shoving them with my fist, they only seem to die if I stop them from doing an "aerial retreat" via smushing them against a wall or clapping them between hands.

Clapping vs flies also has the problem of sometimes they get caught in hollows between fingers and just up being accidentally crappled even though I wanted to inflict crushing damage to kill them. P76 rules could perhaps be expanded somehow to reflect this?

That could be an issue with punches too, maybe instead of hard knuckles making contact an SM-20 speck might just get hit with the soft webbing between the knuckles. If knuckles hit wall then the between-knucckles depression would create a hollow spot between the wall where the fly wouldn't be crushed.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

A bucket of adjustible and potentially infinite size though, since it could scale up to whatever ST your TK is at? I guess I'd understand it better if it were a leveled perk to reflect needing larger diameter/volume to hold geometric increases in water as weight climbs.

Adjustable doesn't sound bad, but infinite size? I think the fact that you can't just set the bucket aside (like a regular bucket) balances the 'size changing'.

Originally Posted by Plane

At it's most enhanced level (Swarm) Diffuse seems to operate no better than Insubstantial, so I'm wondering if just getting Affects Insubstantial would be enough for us to call it a day.

Swarm being able to be affected by Affects Substantial seems... wrong, and I remember a discussion pointing out that you aren't actually insubstantial but treat yourself as such for purposes of what you can do.

Originally Posted by Plane

Is there an inability to grapple small objects at some point? Kromm even suggested at one point bottoming out the SM penalty to minus 4 to hit them

It makes sense. The problem with the fly isn't the grappling, it's a combination of seeing exactly where it is (Per-3 or worse for size) and it having its own dodge (which is likely average or better). As for punching a fly, a thing about small SMs in real life is they are dense enough or built in particular ways that certain things can't seem to 'damage' them (for instance, once you're small enough you can't fall fast enough to take damage from hitting the ground) and that isn't shown in the rules.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Swarm being able to be affected by Affects Substantial seems... wrong, and I remember a discussion pointing out that you aren't actually insubstantial but treat yourself as such for purposes of what you can do.

if using Technical Grappling maybe just something similar to damage, you only take the % Control Points as hexes affected?

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

It makes sense. The problem with the fly isn't the grappling, it's a combination of seeing exactly where it is (Per-3 or worse for size) and it having its own dodge (which is likely average or better).

Per rolls all around! After every attack I'm likely providing full-cover to the fly (it's effectively invisible until I withdraw my fist, my fist is 20x as big as the fly!) and needing to establish an entirely new detection of him after each attack.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

As for punching a fly, a thing about small SMs in real life is they are dense enough or built in particular ways that certain things can't seem to 'damage' them (for instance, once you're small enough you can't fall fast enough to take damage from hitting the ground) and that isn't shown in the rules.

well, the collision rules are pretty generous to those with low HP as they have a high likelihood of rolling a 0 for damage...

of course if they don't, they're going to be put into a coma or something, no middle ground

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

well, the collision rules are pretty generous to those with low HP as they have a high likelihood of rolling a 0 for damage...

of course if they don't, they're going to be put into a coma or something, no middle ground

1d-3 is only 50% chance of 0 damage. Now if it was something like fractions up to 0.1 are treated as 0 damage, that might solve things good enough for gameplay.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

1d-3 is only 50% chance of 0 damage. Now if it was something like fractions up to 0.1 are treated as 0 damage, that might solve things good enough for gameplay.

good point, they should keep reducing that dice to -4/-5 (-6 is 0) with smaller fractions, or just use fractional damage and not tr to convert to minuses at all