[ATE] Farming example

[(E)]

Orc crunch

The village of 500 orcs will require something like 130 tons of food a year, ideally this will include a lot of fatty meat. 100 families.

Farming systems
Buffalo - meat
Buffalo - dairy
Pork
Water fowl
Eels
Cattails
Flax fiber

Area
3 mile radius, 28 square miles of area, 18,000 acres total.

Land usage breakdown;
Suitable for traditional crops 5%
Suitable for traditional grazing 10%
More fertile 2%
Unsuitable, 25% (lakes and rocks)
Suitable for swamp tolerant agriculture 58%

About half the land suitable for traditional crops is used for growing plants that are mildly toxic, two or three times a year these areas are grazed by the pastoral animals to reduce internal parasites (or worm burden) and introduce more trace elements into their diet.

Grazing techniques combined with the natural conditions produces an average yield of 1.6 stock units per acre. 4.6 stock units are required for each growing or meat producing buffalo, Dairy use water buffalo require 6.3 stock units.

The pigs being a secondary animal in this type of system have a decreased area required per animal. 1.1 stock units per animal, (approximately 1800 pigs could be run before this benefit is lost)

A herd of 600 cows and their replacements (150) is maintained to produce 50 replacement animals and typically 400 calves destined for the meat system each year. Dairy production, requiring 3000 acres of grazing, results in 175,000 gallons of milk. 130 tonnes of dairy products (cheese, butter, yoghurt) are made from the milk.

Meat production
Buffalo
154 tonnes off 3000 acres requiring 10 families to run.

Pork
An average population of 600 animals is maintained. Producing 60 tonnes of pork, requiring 15 families and 410 additional acres.

Water fowl
1600 geese (for calculation purposes), producing 7 tonnes of meat as well as a tonne of eggs and requiring 200 additional acres and 8 families. The orcs involved here are likely to be poorer or have other functions in society, unless the tasks related to managing water fowl are subsumed into other roles.

Eels
16 tonnes of sustainable harvest per year.

Dairy production
130 tonnes requiring 3000 acres and 40 families to run.


Crop
Flax
15 families, production is 260lbs per acre, 300 acres

Managed harvests
Cattails
No specialised families involved, 400 acres.

Timber and forest products
5 families, the workers from these families may also perform other functions

Trade and transport
2 families

5 families performing misc functions, likely at least one family supporting a mason.

While the yield per acre is lower than a human equivalent system the labour required for the yield is less. A human village specialising in wheat production would likely provide enough surplus grain for 250 people in an average year. 368 tonnes of average total production for the orcs would support a surplus of maybe 900 orcs. The presumed higher energy intake required by a larger orc body is mitigated by the increased energy content of fat rich food. It wouldn't be unreasonable to increase the food required per orc. Similarly this example presumes a high level of specialization with local trade supplying some miscellaneous requirements. A more self sufficient village would produce less food but require fewer imported goods.

Originally Posted by (E)

Foundation Valley
A group of six family farms, founded by preppers.

The End
Grim global warming combined with societal collapse due to food shortages.

I like it. It's prompted a minor thought:

AtE Last of the Megacities:

As the climate shift gave rise to even more mega farms, those farms eventually develop into megacity-states*, while non fairing megacities specialized towards industry. The farming cities eventually cut off the industrial tech cities (they had the means for self sustenance the tech megas lacked), wars over food. Food cities are all that remain, scattered far and highly defended. They trade at parsimonious rates food for scavenged tech, though they also send out raiding scavenging parties of their own.

In this set-up, "Foundation Valley" PC communities would rule little fiefdoms out in the wasteland, they'd 'operate' much like the giant "evil" farm megacities, they'd need scavenged industry from the ruins of the megatechs, and possibly even send trading enclaves to a megafarm to get necessary foodstuff they could convert to crops (if the "evils" of hyper-modified food, ie infertility, requiring specialized nutrients, extra susceptibility to pests, etc, are not being played up).


* This of course doesn't quite work with your timeline. For it to work your timeline needs to be stretched a bit, a slower more gradual climb to the collapse, and of course I'm ignoring the absolute inefficiency of specialized megacities. Just an interesting side thought for possible AtE set-ups.

Originally Posted by (E)

Orc agriculture
Assumptions
Orcs are primary carnivores (they can consume some vegetable matter).
Canines have a similar diet and will serve as the model.

I love this idea. I've been noodling around trying to figure out what to do differently with Orcs in my next campaign, and I love the idea of going 'canine' with them.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by (E)

Orc crunch

The village of 500 orcs will require something like 130 tons of food a year, ideally this will include a lot of fatty meat. 100 families.

So, families of 5 working adults, or with 3 dependent children? Would things change a lot if you presumed a different family structure- say a higher male:female ratio or something?

Grazing techniques combined with the natural conditions produces an average yield of 1.6 stock units per acre. 4.6 stock units are required for each growing or meat producing buffalo, Dairy use water buffalo require 6.3 stock units.

What's a stock unit defined as?

Eels
16 tonnes of sustainable harvest per year.

This seems low compared to the beef output. Is it worth their effort? Or are eels considered a delicacy?

368 tonnes of average total production for the orcs would support a surplus of maybe 900 orcs.

So, in other words, this could be a village of 1400 orcs, with 500 farmers and 900 warriors? On a 6 mile diameter plot of land; how does that compare with historical human settlements? And instead of warriors, that seems like a lot of labour available for building or mining.

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by (E)

A herd of 600 cows and their replacements (150) is maintained to produce 50 replacement animals and typically 400 calves destined for the meat system each year. Dairy production, requiring 3000 acres of grazing, results in 175,000 gallons of milk. 130 tonnes of dairy products (cheese, butter, yoghurt) are made from the milk.

This isn't listed in agricultural systems above. Threw me a bit as I read down the detailed descriptions of each.

Originally Posted by (E)

Water fowl
...The orcs involved here are likely to be poorer or have other functions in society, unless the tasks related to managing water fowl are subsumed into other roles.

Nice.

Originally Posted by (E)

5 families performing misc functions, likely at least one family supporting a mason.

They may not have the fuel supply to smelt, but surely they'd have a blacksmith to repair tools and edged weapons?

[(E)]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

So, families of 5 working adults, or with 3 dependent children? Would things change a lot if you presumed a different family structure- say a higher male:female ratio or something?

My working definition is the generic 2 adults, 1 of whom has a profession and 1 other who handles everything else. The other 3 are children or the elderly and for calculation purposes they consume the same food as 2 adults. They are also called upon to provide labour at peak times.

A higher ratio of child equivalents to adults would reduce the production efficiency.
A social structure where adolescents are expected to go raiding to earn their place in society would fit in a model like that.
Similarly a society that rapidly gains population and supplies a higher status nomadic group with manpower was an idea that I thought could fit.

Coming up with a societal structure is a bit outside the remit* I have set myself for this thread and I could see myself making unsupported (or more likely forgetting to write the explanation) assumptions in the process. That's something probably best left up to a world building forum game.

What's a stock unit defined as?

One stock unit equals the amount of food required for a ewe with a single lamb during the slowest growing period of the year.

This seems low compared to the beef output. Is it worth their effort? Or are eels considered a delicacy?

The key thing here is that the eels don't require additional labour, they fall into the category that includes vegetable gardens and household animals in the equivalent human example. (AKA the fridge category)

I also couldn't get solid numbers on eel harvests so I lowballed the number based on the best info I could find. The justification is that production may have been higher in the past, but either way the presence of eels was enough to settle the area originally.

So, in other words, this could be a village of 1400 orcs, with 500 farmers and 900 warriors? On a 6 mile diameter plot of land; how does that compare with historical human settlements? And instead of warriors, that seems like a lot of labour available for building or mining.

Yeah, I called the settlement highly specialized when I should have called it hyper specialized. I didn't have the foresight to plug all the numbers into a spreadsheet so I could easily tweak the numbers to match what I discovered about the results.
That said the orc farm system has that much capacity to support additional people (guards, nobles, priests, smiths etc) that I left the decisions and refinement up to the reader.

* and expertise.

[(E)]

Originally Posted by Luke Bunyip

This isn't listed in agricultural systems above. Threw me a bit as I read down the detailed descriptions of each.

I really need to make a decent template up to output this content. Seriously I have that thought every time I post one of these.

Nice.

Along a similar line the buffalo farmers would be more wealthy (depending on how the economy/society is arranged)
I've been noodling about how productivity interacts with GURPS wealth levels and while I havn't made any broad connections between the two, it looks like arable farmers who typically produce food will be of average income for a farmer when they produce an average surplus of 50%. (Hmm I feel I should qualify that statement some more ;) )

They may not have the fuel supply to smelt, but surely they'd have a blacksmith to repair tools and edged weapons?

Definately true, but the question arises in this case as to whether the comparatively simple tasks of tool maintenance are performed by a specialist or as part of everyone's day to day activities, or something in between.

Due to what I considered to be a wealthier farming strata in this society I decided to have the group self sufficent in this respect.
But it wasn't a highly considered decision.
Related to that is that tools are easier to transport than charcoal.

Could a charcoal burner and smith be supported (in food and land area), Yes, definately, and there is also surplus food to provide for other occupations that I have glossed over.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by (E)

Coming up with a societal structure is a bit outside the remit* I have set myself for this thread and I could see myself making unsupported (or more likely forgetting to write the explanation) assumptions in the process. That's something probably best left up to a world building forum game.

Do you want to kick that off now? Otherwise, we could hold off until you have the elf write-up, and do them in combination. Though it's prolly best to do orcs first, then slip in the elves later once we have a good handle on the orcs.

The key thing here is that the eels don't require additional labour, they fall into the category that includes vegetable gardens and household animals in the equivalent human example. (AKA the fridge category)

I also couldn't get solid numbers on eel harvests so I lowballed the number based on the best info I could find. The justification is that production may have been higher in the past, but either way the presence of eels was enough to settle the area originally.

Do you mean numbers like this?:

Originally Posted by Japanese eel farming site

When the eels reach approximately 5 g they are transferred to a juvenile production unit with larger tanks (300-600 m³) at stocking densities of 0.8-1.0 kg/m2. At this point the eels can digest dry feed pellets (1 mm).

Or do you need info on the traditional farming yields?

Oops, just found this nugget:

Originally Posted by Story on decline of Japan's eel catch

The domestic yield for shirasu unagi was roughly 200 tons around 1960, but that number has continued to decrease since the 1970s, with a record low of some 5 tons caught in 2013. Following that, fisheries have been able to maintain roughly 15 tons per year...

Which means this village makes more than all of Japan in a year, though that's probably as much a comment on Japan's unsustainable methods as anything. I'm probably also missing some context about what the numbers are referring to. For one, it's a different kind of eel to what you're using (Japanese eel vs longfin eel?)

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by (E)

I really need to make a decent template up to output this content. Seriously I have that thought every time I post one of these.

GURPS: Templates, templates everywhere...

Originally Posted by (E)

Along a similar line the buffalo farmers would be more wealthy (depending on how the economy/society is arranged)

The social and economic structure of this mooted orcish community is the crux. Your comments below about metal work have me thinking of what would be required for the value adding of produce, and the maintenance basic crafted materials.

Each family group could do it's own butchery, leather and wood working, weaving etc. Families could cooperate for collective benefit; building a hall or palisade, maintaining an eel farm, etc. And there's always raiding neighbouring settlements for their buffalo...

Originally Posted by (E)

but the question arises in this case as to whether the comparatively simple tasks of tool maintenance are performed by a specialist or as part of everyone's day to day activities, or something in between.

A semi regular visiting metal smith, or someone hawking similar? Considered neutral in any conflicts between clans or settlements, etc? Acolytes of an Orcish equivalent to Hephaestus?

Originally Posted by (E)

Coming up with a societal structure is a bit outside the remit* I have set myself for this thread and I could see myself making unsupported (or more likely forgetting to write the explanation) assumptions in the process. That's something probably best left up to a world building forum game.

Sorry. Missed this. Will attempt to temper my comments accordingly.

[(E)]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Do you want to kick that off now? Otherwise, we could hold off until you have the elf write-up, and do them in combination. Though it's prolly best to do orcs first, then slip in the elves later once we have a good handle on the orcs.


Do you mean numbers like this?:

Or do you need info on the traditional farming yields?

Oops, just found this nugget:

Which means this village makes more than all of Japan in a year, though that's probably as much a comment on Japan's unsustainable methods as anything. I'm probably also missing some context about what the numbers are referring to. For one, it's a different kind of eel to what you're using (Japanese eel vs longfin eel?)

I'm happy to have a world building thread spin off from orc agriculture. I agree that just using the orc system as a base is likely the best approach. If I'm too slow starting the thread anyone can feel free to get the ball rolling.

Regarding the eels, I was looking up numbers based on various southern hemisphere species, Austrailian and New Zealand species mainly.
My biggest issue with tracking down numbers was trying to get estimates on pre-industrial numbers. My opinion is that data from after about WW2 is hard to call accurate.

This article (a PDF) suggests at how different fishing was in some areas.
https://www.tepapa.govt.nz/sites/def...-26.paulin.pdf
Pages 4,5,6 mainly the quoted text.

After reading the links you posted I'm even less certain about the numbers I put up.

Hmmm, fishing in general has been a tricky issue to quantify. It's a subject for more thought.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by (E)

After reading the links you posted I'm even less certain about the numbers I put up.

Turns out that "shirasu" means "fry", so that's 15 tons of baby eel or "glass eel", which of course would turn into a much, much larger yield of adult. That was the context I was missing.