Comments on 6-1 Rules

[offsides]

The M1 Abrams can sustain in excess of 60 MPH with the engine governor removed, and I guarantee a HVY can at least match that. Since 100km = 62 miles, 60 MPH is almost your 100 KPH figure. I call that close enough to make me happy. Feel free to change things to make it more "real" if you want, but I don't need to suspend my disbelief when playing Ogre, since I don't try to think of it as real on that level.

[afschell]

How can an enemy unit fire an Ogre's missile? I find the parenthetical comment on the last line of the Victory Point -- Damage to Ogres section puzzling.

"...For every missile destroyed (or fired by enemy): 1 point."

Emphasis added.

[sgbeal]

Originally Posted by Macunaima

1) Ignore it as a nit. Maybe people will get their noses bent out of shape if something like this is changed and it's best to let sleeping dogs lie and ignore the incongruency.

+1. i've been playing Ogre since the late 80's and the exact math of the time/speed scale has never bothered me. That type of change is more invasive than the 6E rules started out to be, and any significant changes to the rules threatens the release date and SJ's sanity.

That said, i liked your post and it has given me food for thought in my own GEV-like game, where just last night i was struggling to find a magical balance between hex size and turn duration vs the discrepancy in speeds between infantry and hovercraft. i'm left with 30khm infantry (ouch!), 45-60kmh tanks (reasonable?), and 90-ish khm hovercraft. i'm not yet pleased with that, and your post has pushed me to go re-think parts of it.

[sgbeal]

Originally Posted by afschell

How can an enemy unit fire an Ogre's missile?

External missiles have a DEF score and can be attacked just like any other component (_before_ the missiles are fired!). Internal missiles cannot - attack the missile racks instead. Laser towers can shoot down in-transit missiles, but most games don't use towers.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by afschell

How can an enemy unit fire an Ogre's missile? I find the parenthetical comment on the last line of the Victory Point -- Damage to Ogres section puzzling.

"...For every missile destroyed (or fired by enemy): 1 point."

Emphasis added.

Actually this is scoring points against the ogre. The player getting the victory point is the one who destroys himself, or has the enemy fire at him, one missile.

[afschell]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Actually this is scoring points against the ogre. The player getting the victory point is the one who destroys himself, or has the enemy fire at him, one missile.

I had not read it from that angle, obviously. Now, are unfired missiles (i.e. internal ones in an Ogre with all of it's missile racks destroyed) also worth 1 VP? My "house rule" would say yes, but other opinions are welcome.

[offsides]

Originally Posted by afschell

I had not read it from that angle, obviously. Now, are unfired missiles (i.e. internal ones in an Ogre with all of it's missile racks destroyed) also worth 1 VP? My "house rule" would say yes, but other opinions are welcome.

You only get VP for unfired missiles if you kill the entire Ogre, in which case you just get the kill value.

[KevinR]

Originally Posted by afschell

I had not read it from that angle, obviously. Now, are unfired missiles (i.e. internal ones in an Ogre with all of it's missile racks destroyed) also worth 1 VP? My "house rule" would say yes, but other opinions are welcome.

There was a discussion of this on the Internal Missile thread, concluding roughly that you don't get points for unusable missiles (unless you immobilize and 'capture'/destroy the Ogre for full points).

[KevinR]

Originally Posted by offsides

The M1 Abrams can sustain in excess of 60 MPH with the engine governor removed, and I guarantee a HVY can at least match that. Since 100km = 62 miles, 60 MPH is almost your 100 KPH figure. I call that close enough to make me happy. Feel free to change things to make it more "real" if you want, but I don't need to suspend my disbelief when playing Ogre, since I don't try to think of it as real on that level.

Even ignoring the maximum sustained speeds, Abrams were fighting "on the move" at 25 kph 20 years ago. (Source: FOIA'd Persian Gulf War report, pp. 679-680 of PDF)

'crews indicate many engagements occurred "on the move" (15 to 25 km/hr), and involved engagements at all angles.'

[Macunaima]

Originally Posted by offsides

The M1 Abrams can sustain in excess of 60 MPH with the engine governor removed, and I guarantee a HVY can at least match that. Since 100km = 62 miles, 60 MPH is almost your 100 KPH figure. I call that close enough to make me happy. Feel free to change things to make it more "real" if you want, but I don't need to suspend my disbelief when playing Ogre, since I don't try to think of it as real on that level.

My point isn't about whether or not a SHVY can ACHIEVE 100kph: it's whether or not it routinely runs about in straight lines at 100kph on the battlefield.

Now, if you can present a source which shows tanks doing anything like that under combat conditions, that would be more to the point.

Even ignoring the maximum sustained speeds, Abrams were fighting "on the move" at 25 kph 20 years ago.

As Kevin points out, this means that the most hightech tank on the planet today moves and fights at about 1 hex a turn. At four minutes a turn, we're talking tanks several times larger than an M1 moving and fighting at 3 to 4 times faster.