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Old 01-23-2020, 12:13 PM   #91
Plane
 
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
That could be used to represent a failure on the part of the BG adept to get it right.

The nature of the Voice is such that an untrained person really can't try to fight it, but you could use the resistance roll to represent a failure on the part of the BG in the event of the critical success.

Now a trained person is another matter, they could try to resist.
B348's special QC rules for Resistance require the attacker's roll to succeed (they can't merely fail by less) so there's already that chance on a crit failure.

To emulate 'normal people can't resist', you could just give the BG a super-high Will (but specifically for this purpose only of fueling an Affliction w/ Malediction, so probably a limitation) or maybe a super-high skill (ie Public Speaking or similar, if using Rapier Wit as baseline) so that as long as they don't crit-fail, their MoS is so crazy-high that normal people just can't match it.

Like for example if the BG had +20 to Will [100] or +20 to Will (-80%, for Voice only) [20] then a baseline 10 v 10 contest becoming 30 v 10 results in:

BG rolls the worst possible non-crit (16) they still got a MoS of 14.
Target rolls the best possible (3) they merely have a MoS of 7.
BG wins.

However if the target bought Resistance +8 to Voice, they could attain a MoS of 15 on that perfect roll and just manage to scrape by.
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Old 01-23-2020, 01:11 PM   #92
AllenOwen
 
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
I wish I had a copy of the DUNE rpg, but the second hand prices are just insane.

Regarding the navigators, I remember there are 2 differents views :
-one is that a navigator fold space by mental power fueled by the spice.
In that case, no space travel without a navigator.
(or, possibly, forbidden technology)

-the other is that the navigator use the spice prescience to find a safe path, while the ship engine fold space.
In that case, travel without a navigator is possible, if dangerous. (how dangerous is left to the GM to decide).

I don't remember if Herbert ever indicated one way or other.
I hear you about the DUNE RPG prices. Not sure it's even worth it.

The first instance of the navigators seems to come from the Lynch movie, which has the navigators doing the folding of space.


I am pretty sure Herbert intended the second instance, since Ix or Richese were working on an artificial replacement for navigators, i.e. a navicomputer. They weren't supposed to be doing that, since it violates rules about computers existing, but it was an open secret.
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Old 01-23-2020, 03:33 PM   #93
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
Regarding the navigators, I remember there are 2 different views
I am pretty sure it is just the 1984 movie that had navigators folding space.
Navigating a foldship sans navigator has to be a 99.999% death sentence.
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Originally Posted by A Ladder View Post
I disagree about Sardaukar being mooks.
I readily acknowledge that mine is a minority opinion!
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…they needed a ton of imperial Sardakaur to take out the Atreides guards.
Well, if they needed a ton of them, that implies that they are not all that great!
Quote:
Throughout the book we find out that house Atreides personnel are some the best trained fighters (due to the Weirding Way)…
Yes, the Atreides home guard becoming decent was an issue for Emperor. But (1) the standard for house troops was low, and (2) I thought the Weirding Way was a BG thing? Paul was teaching Fremen WW for sure, but I don’t think the Atreides home guard was getting those lessons!
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Sardaukar are from the prison planet Salusa Secundus which is a harsh world environment much like Arrakis.
Thanks for that reminder! I had forgotten that detail. But there is good reason the U.S. does not recruit from prisons to special forces!
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I have a different interpretation of that scene… The Sardaukar were defeated due to the following: They were surprised that women and children could fight, they could not use their personal shields (which means that they probably took no thought to defense), and were in the Fremen's home ground.
Sorry, but those excuses still make the Sardaukar look weak!
Quote:
The Fremen do have ridiculous stats.
Races with ridiculous stats are much less useful for RPGs. I am okay with a Fremen template being 100 points. I am not okay with the base being 200 points.

Last edited by beetle496; 01-23-2020 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 01-23-2020, 03:53 PM   #94
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

I thought that I read in Dune, that Duncan Idaho, Gurney Halleck and Jessica had been training the Atriedes troops in the Weirding Way, or elements of it.

Duncan Idaho killed 19 Sardaukar single handed before he fell, buying time for Jessica and Paul to escape. They kept his body for later.

Now, it could be just that Duncan, a graduate of the Swordmaster school of Ginaz and Gurney had made the Atreides troops almost as good as the Sardaukar, which represented one more thing for Shaddam IV to be concerned over. Leto's popularity, his rather weak claim to the throne, and now his army being almost as good as the dreaded Sardaukar. All combine to make the Red Duke a threat, regardless of what Leto plans himself. So he had to go.

I'm thinking Sardaukar can be a lot like stormtroopers (another thing G. Lucas lifted for Star Wars, maybe?). The one of the reasons they seem inept in the movies was the plot armor of the main characters. They cut down the rebel crew in EP IV easily enough...RoTJ on the other hand is where things starting getting silly with the Ewoks.

The point is, they can be as mookish as you like. I played in a D6 Star Wars game where the GM took the position that the stormtroopers are feared for a reason ("Look at these blast points. Too accurate for sand people, etc, etc") so he made them dangerous. Not too dangerous, but not mooks. Even the FFG Star Wars they are a little dangerous for mooks.

In my copy of Dune, under the entry for Sardaukar, it says:

"...By the time of Shaddam IV, while they were still formidable, their strength had been sapped by overconfidence, and the sustaining mystique of their warrior religion had been deeply undermined by cynicism."

So, they are mooks. Or not. Depends on what you want. Are they mooks when compared to Fremen? Maybe. Compared to ordinary people? Probably not.
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Old 01-23-2020, 09:06 PM   #95
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

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Originally Posted by beetle496 View Post

Thanks for that reminder! I had forgotten that detail. But there is good reason the U.S. does not recruit from prisons to special forces!
The situation with Salusa Secundus and Arrakis isn't the same as Terrestrial prisons today, though.

To begin with, the Sardaukar and Fremen are born in prison, so to speak. Their ancestors were imprisoned on their respective worlds many generations before, and the environments are incredibly hostile, Arrakis is particular is only borderline habitable. So natural selection weeds out all but the toughest and the smartest and the most ruthless before you even start.

Compounding this in both cases is a religious intensity where just about everybody has what in GURPS terms would be the Fanatic Disad...except that the self-discipline and confidence their faith provides turns it into an effective Advantage.

Both worlds are such that their environments demand high intelligence and extreme self-discipline to survive or thrive. A Fremen who can't master stillsuit discipline, for ex, is a liability to himself and the tribe, and won't be tolerated.

He'll either master it or he won't live. Survival on both worlds requires that the individual subordinate himself to the group from birth to death.

At least in the case of the Fremen, the Bene Gesserit had 'seeded' them with psych-profiled religious dogmas that they took and ran with in directions the BG never expected.

At their respective heights, both groups formed armies of uber-disciplined, physically tough, mentally alert and intelligent, and utterly fearless soldiers. Their faith was strong enough that they just didn't fear death the way most people do, so they would take bigger risks and pay a higher price to beat you than you will them, and yet they are not berserkers but very focused and controlled...and utterly ruthless.

In the case of the Sardaukar, they were past their greatest time by the days of Paul. They no longer had quite the full intensity of faith, they had taken on a tingle of subtlety and sophistication that undercut them, esp. at command and staff levels. The Corrinos had been neglecting their training and conditioning, too.

The Fremen broke faster. They very experiences they had in the course of their jihad undercut their fanatic focus, the disappointment when victory didn't work out they way they expected reinforced that. But while it lasted, they were a sheer terror.

In both cases, I'd model them at their height by giving them baseline stats of +1 to IQ, +1 to DX, and +1 to HT. ST I'm not sure about. That's for their whole populations, the Sardaukar at home and the Fremen at home. Their fighting forces will be picked from among the higher-than-normal baseline and be better than that. (Remember, their native environments tend to kill off 'average' people before they reproduce, or they aren't allowed to reproduce.) I'd give their general populations, relative to the main run of humanity, a +1 of Strong Will at least, to represent their fanaticism and cultural self-discipline. Again, the soldiers will run higher. Fanaticism is a near-universal Disad...except that it ain't necessarily a Disad for them.

Something else to keep in mind: post Butlerian Jihad, nobody has big armies. Or at least, not big compared to the scale of the empire. You've got the Sardaukar of the Emperor, and the various House militaries (which are of highly variable quality), the Guild probably has some troops, the BG probably have a few troops in this time, and they're dangerous on their own. I'm sure Ix has an army and probably the Bene Tleilax too. But none of these forces are very big compared to the size of the setting. The Sardaukar may be numerous compared to any House's forces, but still a modest-sized force in absolute terms. Ditto the Fremen.

Which is part of why things play out the way they do.
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Last edited by Johnny1A.2; 01-23-2020 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 01-23-2020, 10:03 PM   #96
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

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Originally Posted by AllenOwen View Post
I'm thinking Sardaukar can be a lot like stormtroopers (another thing G. Lucas lifted for Star Wars, maybe?). The one of the reasons they seem inept in the movies was the plot armor of the main characters.
Another is that during their big combat sequence on the Death Star in "Ep. IV A New Hope" Tarkin's plan to find the rebel base required that Leia escape in the Millennium Falcon, and take his tracking beacon the the rebel's secret base. It's hard to imagine that Tarkin had not issued orders to the stormtroopers "under no circumstances must the Princess or her rescuers be shot or captured". Tarkin's plan makes no sense unless he did that. You have to figure that every shot the stormtroopers fired on the Death Star was aimed to miss.
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Old 01-23-2020, 10:23 PM   #97
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

Yes, I have to agree. As for the inhabitants of prison planets, humans do not excel unless they get proper education and proper nutrition, which is difficult on a desert world. An argument could be made that the inhabitants of a prison planet should be less capable than the average Galactic citizen because they lack proper education and proper nutrition. Beneficial genetics really does not matter if you do not have the opportunity to take advantage of the improvements.
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Old 01-23-2020, 11:02 PM   #98
Johnny1A.2
 
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Yes, I have to agree. As for the inhabitants of prison planets, humans do not excel unless they get proper education and proper nutrition, which is difficult on a desert world. An argument could be made that the inhabitants of a prison planet should be less capable than the average Galactic citizen because they lack proper education and proper nutrition. Beneficial genetics really does not matter if you do not have the opportunity to take advantage of the improvements.
But the inhabitants of Arrakis and Salusa Secundus do get good nutrition and good education. That's the point. The Corrinos are (or were) making sure the Sardaukar get exactly the education and training they need, and the Sardaukar have become very good at extracting the necessary nutrients and resources from Salusa. That had been allowed to slip somewhat by Paul's time.

The Fremen, likewise, have developed a culture that can also provide those necessities, by dint of extreme societal discipline. That's what makes them so dangerous.
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Old 01-24-2020, 02:03 AM   #99
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

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Originally Posted by AllenOwen View Post
So, they are mooks. Or not. Depends on what you want.
Yes, this is how I would run with it, even from session to session. The build points for Sardaukar could/would be quite variable.

Fremen would have less variability. In addition to fanaticism and the uniformly high stats mentioned, they would also have 20+ points in desert survival and drug addict disadvantage.
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Old 01-31-2020, 09:20 AM   #100
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

Would Melange provide Longevity or Extended Lifespan? That is what it is mostly used for outside the Spacing Guild, who have to take a lot just to get their limited prescience to navigate. Paul, being Paul, was an exception in that not needing a lot to "activate", for lack of a better word, his abilities.
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