08-26-2019, 06:13 PM | #31 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength
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08-26-2019, 07:38 PM | #32 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength
Again, having exact values (other than “+x=×10”) isn't that important, since we're using these for ranges; and having an “exact” value for the cube root of 2 isn't really that big of a deal.
Conversely, both squares and cubes have shorter lists if x is a multiple of 6, and continue to hit ×10: if x=12 then the sequence for squares is six steps to ×10 and the sequence for cubes is four steps to ×10. By contrast, the sequence for squares if x=10 is five steps to ×10 and the sequence for cubes is ten steps to ×1000, and misses both ×10 and ×100. (Admittedly, it does do a reasonable job of approximating a ×2 per step pattern; but again, that's not all that important.) |
08-26-2019, 07:51 PM | #33 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength
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08-26-2019, 08:06 PM | #34 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength
Because we use a decimal number system, you need to precisely hit a power of ten after a whole number of steps, or else you won't have a pattern that repeats. Ever.
(And if you have a pattern that hits a power of ten in a whole number of steps, you can rearrange them to produce a pattern that hits ten in the same number of steps or less.) Last edited by dataweaver; 08-26-2019 at 08:31 PM. |
08-26-2019, 09:20 PM | #35 | ||
World's Worst Detective
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Columbus, Ohio
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Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength
This makes me think of people discussing which base/radix is most useful. 10 for ten fingers? 12 for divisibility? 16 for being a power of 2? 20 for ten fingers and ten toes? 60 for even more divisibility? I stand by 12 and 16, but that's not really important. It just helps me feel like I'm still relevant in this math-heavy conversation.
Maybe I should start a new thread about switching all of GURPS over to a duodecimal system... Hmm... Anyway, it seems like there are a few major proposals:
+10 = ×20 System The +10 = ×20 system feels the best to me. It seems like it would take the least work to digest alongside Knowing Your Own Strength, especially because KYOS lifting is +10 = ×10. Because it already converts standard ST to KYOS ST using this kind of scale, it seems like it would be a natural fit to KYOS, especially because RT would just be KYOS HP + 10 (assuming my math was correct). dataweaver gives a conversion from standard HP/damage to +10 = ×20 here. Quote:
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+10 = ×24 System This would be best to use if KYOS was converted to be +10 = ×12. It's a bit of extra work, but it could be done. Plus, dataweaver mentioned that it "gives you easy squares and cubes", but the importance is beyond what I can safely guess. Anthony argues that it gives "nasty numbers", and dataweaver argues that it's "less of a concern than you might think, since we're actually more interested in ranges of values than exact values". Earlier in the thread, dataweaver detailed these values. +10 = ×30 System Anthony already listed the advantages of this scale. I'm inclined to believe that what Anthony wrote must be true. Also, Anthony fleshed this out as Know Your Own Damage. I'm fairly certain that RyanW is also working in this scale, but I don't want to be flat-out wrong. Notes Please, please, please let me know if I got anything wrong. I'm sorry about the excessive hedging—that's a lot of "seem" and "think" and "feel". Because I know so little about what I'm talking about, I just want to make it clear that I'm never trying to step on anyone's toes. Also, thank you to everyone who has participated in this discussion so far. Not only do I have a much better idea of how to merge KYOS and CI, I have learned a bit about math as well!
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08-26-2019, 11:18 PM | #36 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength
Note that you can sensibly combine +20 ST = x10 damage and +30 LogD = x10 damage:
Let Mass = (LogST required to lift an object as 1x BL). It's convenient to say Wound Threshold = Mass±X. Using the tables in Basic and the KYoD tables, the level 0 wound threshold works out to Mass-8 for living, Mass+1 for unliving, Mass+10 for homogeneous (a 125 lb/mass 18 object has 10/20/40 hp, corresponding to 30/39/48 on the LogD table, and level 0 wound threshold is at -20). However, the problem we find is that the formula for ST in Basic is not actually Mass+X -- it actually resolves as Mass*2/3 - 2 (a 125 lb/Mass 18 creature has ST 10, BL 20, logST 10, a 1,000 lb/Mass 27 creature has ST 20, BL 80, LogST 16). Thus, if we compute HP based on Mass and damage based on ST, the two values don't align. Either we have to wound threshold on something other than Mass, or we have to increase damage faster than ST. It turns out there's a pretty easy way of doing this: add a term for weapon weight. If damage scales with ST + (weapon Mass/3), the x8 more massive creature likely has 8x heavier natural weapons (+9 Mass) and thus even though it has only 6 higher ST, it would have 9 higher damage. |
08-26-2019, 11:21 PM | #37 | ||||||
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength
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That's why I'm suggesting that HP (or its log-counterpart, RT) should be designed to parallel damage-dishing capability, and letting the relationship between weight and HP fall where it may. Quote:
+10 = ×24 System This would be best to use if KYOS was converted to be +10 = ×12. It's a bit of extra work, but it could be done. Plus, dataweaver mentioned that it "gives you easy squares and cubes", but the importance is beyond what I can safely guess. Anthony argues that it gives "nasty numbers", and dataweaver argues that it's "less of a concern than you might think, since we're actually more interested in ranges of values than exact values". Earlier in the thread, dataweaver detailed these values.[/QUOTE] That's an accurate summary. Quote:
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08-27-2019, 10:05 AM | #38 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength
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You run quickly into mechanics issues, of course! There's a lot of collateral damage, so to speak, shifting to new scales. ST rolls probably need to die completely - the difference between "what am I lifting" and "what's my lifting power" should be a modifier to a DX or HT roll. Given the small amount of extra mass that usually makes you go from "doing reps" to "can't budge it" in the real world, scales with many steps actually help you here. Note that I use a 12-step chart in Technical Grappling as well for the "Grappling Encumbrance Modifier." No real comment, other than to reply and say "Yes" to the SSR being as close as possible to the "how many HP damage does it take to get to 0, -HP, -NxHP, and finally -10xHP. Plus the various multipliers for stuff.
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08-27-2019, 10:38 AM | #39 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength
There are basically three concerns which decide the specific scaling you use
Mass-Based vs ST-Based HP in G4e is either sqrt(BL*5) or (2, 4, or 8)*mass^(1/3). These work out to the same numbers for critters because BL is set to 0.8 * mass^(2/3). If you want to figure out toughness and damage based on ST, the formula should be ST/2 + some constant, and objects will have HP (and DR) thresholds based on Mass*2/3. If you want to figure out toughness and damage based on mass, the formula should be (Mass Rating)/3 + some constant, where mass rating is the ST required to lift the thing, and ST-based damage should be about ST*1.5 plus some bonus (or maybe ST + weapon bonus, where weapon bonus is expected to make up the difference). KYoS gets around this by making BL linear in mass. Appropriate damage variance The difference between minimum and maximum damage in GURPS is a factor of 6 (0.78 on a log10 scale). On 20xlog10, that is 15.6 points, roughly the difference between minimum and maximum on 3d6. However, there are plausible arguments that damage (or at least penetration) differences in GURPS are unrealistically high, or alternately you might prefer something other than 3d. Convenience Whatever scale you work with should be easy to use (frankly, the SSR table, at +6 per x10, is a poor design decision, humans much prefer 2, 5, or 10 scales). |
08-27-2019, 11:18 AM | #40 |
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength
So I have a very silly question, as some of the math and conjecture in this thread is above my head:
Why is it that KYOS and CI don't properly work together? By my understanding, per KYOS - ST is logarithmic as far as lifting capacity, but damage progression remains the same (with the exception of Thrust damage which is raised to match Swing progression, as noted in the OP). So while ST itself may be logarithmic, I don't understand how Damage is all of a sudden logarithmic? In fact, there was a thread on KYOS about this - how damage, at a certain point, lacks comically far behind lifting capacity (i.e. I can lift a tank as easy as my tennis shoe, but I'm not even close to being able to punch it for meaningful damage - just to be clear I don't have a personal issue with this, but it's been mentioned before). With the assumption that the previous statements are true (they may well not be, please feel more than free to correct me), we must also look at HP as dictated by KYOS: that is, ST is reduced to its new level (20 to 16 for example), then HP is bought back up to its original level (whichever KYOS calculation you use to do that; by default per this example it would be purchased back up to 20 again). Now, can't that 20 HP simply be plugged into Conditional Injury for the Robustness Threshold? Aside from Thrust becoming more vicious (intended as per KYOS), I don't see why this breaks anything given that damage itself isn't *actually* any more logarithmic than it was before (despite basic lift progression changing)? I guess I just can't see why the default HP # needs to change, because it doesn't have to change at all per KYOS; the result in my mind being that Conditional Injury should still work exactly as intended, because you're getting the same RT as well as the same WT (again, aside from Thrust). I'm sure I must be missing something obvious, appreciate any responses.
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conditional injury, hit points, knowing your own strength, kyos, logarithm |
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