Strongbow + Elven Bow

Kaldrin · 05-14-2008, 08:51 AM

I just wanted to see if anyone can confirm if I'm looking at this right. The strongbow perk lets you use a bow that's +2 ST to your regular score. The Elven bow fires as a bow +2 ST higher than the regular bow of the same ST. So, the two should be able to be combined, right? So the strongbow fires an elven bow at an effective +4 ST to his regular score?

I looked for 20 mins but I couldn't seem to find any reference to combining the two.

~~Figleaf23~~ · 05-14-2008, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

I just wanted to see if anyone can confirm if I'm looking at this right. The strongbow perk lets you use a bow that's +2 ST to your regular score. The Elven bow fires as a bow +2 ST higher than the regular bow of the same ST. So, the two should be able to be combined, right? So the strongbow fires an elven bow at +4 ST to his regular score?

I think that's mistaken. The Elven Bow has an ST rating like other bows but it has an effectiveness as if it were two ST higher.

The Strongbow perk lets you use a bow that has an ST rating higher than your own ST.

They are different things, not stackable plusses.

griffin · 05-14-2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I think that's mistaken. The Elven Bow has an ST rating like other bows but it has an effectiveness as if it were two ST higher.

The Strongbow perk lets you use a bow that has an ST rating higher than your own ST.

They are different things, not stackable plusses.

I agree. What Strongbow lets you do is use an Elven Bow which has ST rating 2 higher than your actual ST. Then the Elven Bow will act as if it is +2 on the actual ST of the bow. At least that's the way I'm reading things (note, while I can check Strongbow since I have MA, I don't have Dungeon Fantasy so I'm not certain on the effects of Elven Bow, except by looking at the indications in GURPS Characer Assistant).

Strongbow has no effect if you use a bow that you already have sufficient ST to use normally.

Icelander · 05-14-2008, 09:07 AM

I see no reason why it shouldn't work together.

Let's take a strapping young lad from Shropshire as our example. He's grown up learning how to draw and shoot a bow. First an elm selfbow cut for him by an older brother, then progressively bigger bows as his strength increased and when he turned sixteen he could draw his father's yew longbow.

He's ST 12, with the Perk Special Exercises (Arm ST +1) and Arm ST +1. This makes his effective ST for using bows 13. He's also got the Strongbow Perk and Bow at DX+5, making his effective ST for bow use 15, which matches the ST of his father's bow (and appears to have been fairly typical for a longbow used in war).

If this young lad were to use a ST 15 elven bow instead of the yew longbow to which he's used, he'd fire it as if it was a ST 17 bow.

~~Figleaf23~~ · 05-14-2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icelander

I see no reason why it shouldn't work together.

Sure, they will work together if the proper equipment and situation are in place. But you could instead have an Elven Bow that has an ST rating two below the characters personal ST, in which case the Strongbow perk does nothing of use.

Kromm · 05-14-2008, 09:36 AM

Icelander is correct.

Strongbow lets a ST X person of sufficient skill shoot a ST X+2 bow; this is a property of the person, not of the bow. From an external, black-box perspective, when shooting a bow, this archer is indistinguishable from archers whose ST, Arm ST, and/or Striking ST total X+2. That is, a ST 11 man with Strongbow and a high Bow skill has ST 13 for all purposes as an archer, and can't be distinguished from a natural ST 13 archer.

A ST Y elven bow has damage and range for ST Y+2. That's a property of the bow, not of the archer (and, incidentally, simply a port of the high-tech compound bow rules to the dungeon). A ST Y archer shooting a ST Y elven bow gets the performance of a ST Y+2 bow.

When a ST X man who's ST X+2 with bows chooses a bow, he chooses a ST X+2 bow. If he chooses an elven bow, then he chooses ST Y = X+2, and it looses arrows at ST Y+2 = X+4.

In short, somebow with the right perk and a bow that costs 17 times as much -- call it a $3,400 longbow -- can get +4 ST and thus +2 thrust damage. Or he could not pay 1 point for a perk and 7 points for Signature Gear, use an ordinary bow, and get +2 to skill instead. It's up to the player which is more important.

Not another shrubbery · 05-14-2008, 09:42 AM

The actual wording on p26 of DF1: "Lets a bow shoot at +2 to ST for range and damage purposes; e.g., a ST 11 elf could draw a ST 13 bow." That clause after the semicolon suggests that the elven bow lets a weaker archer fire it at its normal draw.

Icelander · 05-14-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

The actual wording on p26 of DF1: "Lets a bow shoot at +2 to ST for range and damage purposes; e.g., a ST 11 elf could draw a ST 13 bow." That clause after the semicolon suggests that the elven bow lets a weaker archer fire it at its normal draw.

I agree that the clause could be interpreted that way, but in light of the text before the semi-colon, it's more reasonable to interpret it as being a bonus to ST for range and damage purposes.

Kromm · 05-14-2008, 09:49 AM

It honestly doesn't matter, because bow ST is completely up to the buyer and has no impact on price or weight. So our ST 9 elf with Strongbow functions as a ST 11 elf when shooting bows, and bows -- elven or otherwise -- can't tell whether he's ST 11 for real or "just" ST 9 with Strongbow. He goes to Legoslash's Discount Bow Shoppe and picks out the strongest elven bow he can draw. That's a ST 13 bow that lets a ST 11 person draw it . . . because he's ST 11 for this purpose, not ST 9. So he shoots a bow with ST 13, despite having natural ST 9 for every purpose but archery.

This is no different from saying a ST 9 elf gets +2 ST for Strongbow and +2 ST for an elven bow, for a net ST 13. The difference only matters with found weapons, where you can't choose your bow.

I honestly don't see anything "broken" about a 1-point perk and a 7-point piece of Signature gear giving +4 ST and +2 damage within one ultra-narrow category. A real munchkin would put all 8 points into Striking ST 4 (One Attack, Bow, -60%) [8] and not have to worry about raising Bow above DX or relying on a specific piece of gear.

Not another shrubbery · 05-14-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm

It honestly doesn't matter, because bow ST is completely up to the buyer and has no impact on price or weight.

Ooh... distillery!*

[ST 11 elven bow fires as a ST 13] = [ST 13 bow that can be fired by ST 11 user]. Got it, thanks!

*OPEN UP! IRS!

05-14-2008, 08:51 AM	#1
Kaldrin Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Calgary, AB... looking for a few more to join us.	Strongbow + Elven Bow I just wanted to see if anyone can confirm if I'm looking at this right. The strongbow perk lets you use a bow that's +2 ST to your regular score. The Elven bow fires as a bow +2 ST higher than the regular bow of the same ST. So, the two should be able to be combined, right? So the strongbow fires an elven bow at an effective +4 ST to his regular score? I looked for 20 mins but I couldn't seem to find any reference to combining the two. __________________ -safe from the children born as ghosts Last edited by Kaldrin; 05-14-2008 at 09:09 AM. Reason: Added a word to make sense

05-14-2008, 09:07 AM	#4
Icelander Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Iceland*	Re: Strongbow + Elven Bow I see no reason why it shouldn't work together. Let's take a strapping young lad from Shropshire as our example. He's grown up learning how to draw and shoot a bow. First an elm selfbow cut for him by an older brother, then progressively bigger bows as his strength increased and when he turned sixteen he could draw his father's yew longbow. He's ST 12, with the Perk Special Exercises (Arm ST +1) and Arm ST +1. This makes his effective ST for using bows 13. He's also got the Strongbow Perk and Bow at DX+5, making his effective ST for bow use 15, which matches the ST of his father's bow (and appears to have been fairly typical for a longbow used in war). If this young lad were to use a ST 15 elven bow instead of the yew longbow to which he's used, he'd fire it as if it was a ST 17 bow. __________________ Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

05-14-2008, 09:36 AM	#6
Kromm *GURPS* Line Editor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: Strongbow + Elven Bow Icelander is correct. Strongbow lets a ST X person of sufficient skill shoot a ST X+2 bow; this is a property of the person, not of the bow. From an external, black-box perspective, when shooting a bow, this archer is indistinguishable from archers whose ST, Arm ST, and/or Striking ST total X+2. That is, a ST 11 man with Strongbow and a high Bow skill has ST 13 for all purposes as an archer, and can't be distinguished from a natural ST 13 archer. A ST Y elven bow has damage and range for ST Y+2. That's a property of the bow, not of the archer (and, incidentally, simply a port of the high-tech compound bow rules to the dungeon). A ST Y archer shooting a ST Y elven bow gets the performance of a ST Y+2 bow. When a ST X man who's ST X+2 with bows chooses a bow, he chooses a ST X+2 bow. If he chooses an elven bow, then he chooses ST Y = X+2, and it looses arrows at ST Y+2 = X+4. In short, somebow with the right perk and a bow that costs 17 times as much -- call it a $3,400 longbow -- can get +4 ST and thus +2 thrust damage. Or he could not pay 1 point for a perk and 7 points for Signature Gear, use an ordinary bow, and get +2 to skill instead. It's up to the player which is more important. __________________ Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> *GURPS* Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just *GURPS* News]

05-14-2008, 09:42 AM	#7
Not another shrubbery Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: Strongbow + Elven Bow The actual wording on p26 of DF1: "Lets a bow shoot at +2 to ST for range and damage purposes; e.g., a ST 11 elf could draw a ST 13 bow." That clause after the semicolon suggests that the elven bow lets a weaker archer fire it at its normal draw.

05-14-2008, 09:49 AM	#9
Kromm *GURPS* Line Editor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: Strongbow + Elven Bow It honestly doesn't matter, because bow ST is completely up to the buyer and has no impact on price or weight. So our ST 9 elf with Strongbow functions as a ST 11 elf when shooting bows, and bows -- elven or otherwise -- can't tell whether he's ST 11 for real or "just" ST 9 with Strongbow. He goes to Legoslash's Discount Bow Shoppe and picks out the strongest elven bow he can draw. That's a ST 13 bow that lets a ST 11 person draw it . . . because he's ST 11 for this purpose, not ST 9. So he shoots a bow with ST 13, despite having natural ST 9 for every purpose but archery. This is no different from saying a ST 9 elf gets +2 ST for Strongbow and +2 ST for an elven bow, for a net ST 13. The difference only matters with found weapons, where you can't choose your bow. I honestly don't see anything "broken" about a 1-point perk and a 7-point piece of Signature gear giving +4 ST and +2 damage within one ultra-narrow category. A real munchkin would put all 8 points into Striking ST 4 (One Attack, Bow, -60%) [8] and not have to worry about raising Bow above DX or relying on a specific piece of gear. __________________ Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> *GURPS* Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just *GURPS* News]