Ninja Feedback Forum

[HeatDeath]

Originally Posted by wolf90

Again, in the canon Ogre-verse, Ninja are both rare and designed for specific missions.

That's actually quite helpful.

As I understand it, the "traditional ninja" was intended to be - and functioned quite well as - essentially a drop-in replacement for a MkV in the Smash-the-CP scenario: lighter-weight, but with a tactically interesting "stealth" game mechanic to compensate.

If this Ninja is ill-suited to the "solo, deep strike against well defended target" mission profile of the core game, than of course playtesting it in that scenario is going to be less than entirely satisfying.

I would love to see a scenario, or notes that can be used to build a scenario, depicting this thing's typical mission profile. As things stand I feel like a German admiral during WWI who's just been handed the specs for a newfangled contraption called a "battlecruiser". "So let me get this straight, it's armed like a battleship, but if I put it in a line it'll get cut to pieces. So what exactly do I do with this thing?"

What exactly do I do with this thing?

[And I really didn't mean to slam Car Wars as hard as it may have sounded like I did. I like Car Wars. It's just that the two games could not possibly be more different in tone, complexity, and, dragging in a technical term from architecture, "design pattern language" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language, and what works in one is just far from ideal for the other.

It actually really says something about Steve that, during his career, he's been central to three games [Ogre, Car Wars, and Munchkin] so wildly, utterly divergent in their pattern languages.]

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by HeatDeath

As things stand I feel like a German admiral during WWI who's just been handed the specs for a newfangled contraption called a "battlecruiser". "So let me get this straight, it's armed like a battleship, but if I put it in a line it'll get cut to pieces. So what exactly do I do with this thing?"

The WWI German admiral might be the right answer. The German fleet fought the Battle of Jutland, arguably won, but were horrified by their own losses. They sailed back to port and were insignificant for the rest of the war.

That could inspire some victory conditions. "You can use the division ninja, but we need it elsewhere with at least M3, one decoy, and 4 missiles. It'll be ale to escape with M2. With M1 it'll get caught on the way out."

A fighting withdraw is particularly hard in Ogre. Maybe that can be the ninja's specialty.

And I really didn't mean to slam Car Wars as hard as it may have sounded like I did. I like Car Wars.

With you there. Car Wars is a game where you drive and shoot things, preceded by a game where you buy stuff and draw a cool diagram. (I had as much fun with the shopping as with playing.)

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by wolf90

Like G.E.V., and like Shockwave, these proposed rules (CE/Vulcan and Ninja) have added another tier to the game. I guess it all depends on how far down the rabbit hole we want to go!

That's a very interesting way to frame it. I would argue that there is a big difference between adding G.E.V. and adding Ninjas, though. The Ogre/G.E.V. combo is well-established as the de-facto standard for what makes up the Ogreverse. G.E.V. was a logical expansion that added flavor without being "weird". Shockwave introduced fundamental game changes with LOS for lasers, G.E.V. just focused on conventional unit warfare; fleshing out some details. That's a big difference from what the Ninja is bringing to the table.

Ironically, even within "tiers" there are optional rules, and some have been around forever and still feel out of place/wrong (eg, mines are from Ogre, for crying out loud).

It feels a bit like MtG and the barrage of expansion sets; at some point you have to stop trying to collect it all and live with what you have; even though the majority of your cards printed in the 90s would be wiped out by just about anything current.

Full disclosure: I'm almost exclusively a "tier two" player. ;-)

Originally Posted by wolf90

(And I mean it when I said that the Combat Engineering/Vulcan rules could use more critiquing. You guys have been waaaaaay too lenient in evaluating that case!)

There's a fundamental difference between the Vulcan/CE rules and the Ninja rules, though. The Vulcan rules, while extensive; are concrete, known to both sides and represent tasks in the game. The worst part about the Vulcan rules is simply remembering what you can do. They aren't game-breaking, just record-keeping.

The Ninja rules, on the other hand; are one-sided (fun only for the Ninja player), mysterious (in a bad way), and lead to weird mental gymnastics. To get back to Car Wars or MtG, building the Ninja is probably equal in fun to playing it. The "feel" of the Ninja is much more obtuse in a way that gets my Spidey-Sense tingling; Ogre should not be about building the Ogre, it should be about playing it.

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by dwalend

I'm not sure the ninja rules as presented would even be "fun once" for anyone but the player controlling the ninja. That player gets to pick which three-paragraph-sets of rules to try in the game. His opponent has to study and remember all of the three-paragraph-sets, then guess right through the game. That's a lot of time spent not playing (boredom), then playing but only using a small proportion of the rules just learned (disappointment). It's a big divisor shrinking the value of rules.

Originally Posted by selenite

That's a good summary of my reaction. I think if my opponent brought a Ninja onto the board with these rules my reaction would be, "Okay, you win. Let's play something else."

I'd have a big smile on my face and say...let's do this!...and next game I play the NINJA!

To my thinking, the NINJA is no different really than one player having an OGRE and the other only conventional forces like the MARK3/5 Attacks Scenarios for example. The NINJA vs everything else. The points for each sides forces will balance the seemingly unbalanced and unfair Scenario. I say seemingly because it is just that. It's a fair fight, only each side has different units and abilities. Such are my most sought after and enjoyed game experiences.

I have nothing but luv and respect for individual preferences. So, here, this can be an example of two opposite views on the topic. I enjoy learning these rules as much as playing, and even more, the fun of mission editing of the NINJA I will be running in a Scenario. For myself that means huge game play enjoyment and replayability.

Originally Posted by dwalend

I think the ninja should be a MkIV with some version of doubled defense plus a good stealth gimmick. The die roll modification for rangers seems a good start. A small number of single-use decoys could make for a good opening gambit, or to help the ninja escape. Defending against that would make an interesting puzzle.

We can have both actually. :)

Sounds like the FanMade SHINOBI: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248...posted-public/
Here compared to the NINJA: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248...posted-public/

Which compliments the official background from the Timeline http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/lastwar/timeline.html:

"2080:
...Ogre Ninja introduced."

"2086:
... Paneuropean siege of Mexico City broken by the first field appearance of Combine Mark IVs."

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

3) I know Steve has said the Ghosts are how he really wanted the Ninja to work, but I have to wonder if this is the best way to do it. That said, I also haven't been able to come up with a better idea myself, but that doesn't mean that there isn't one. The idea of ghosts isn't a bad one, but the whole mechanic of having to keep separate record sheets for hits on them strikes me as being a bit more bookkeeping than most players want to do. After all, we're essentially talking about keeping track of up to 3 Ogres separately at a time, and any time a new ghost is spawned the you have to clone the record sheet of the Ninja that spawned the new ghost. Assuming no extra ghosts, you're talking about potentially needing 7(!) copies of the Ninja record sheet per Ninja PER GAME. And that's clearly too much. I think that if we can come up with a simpler way of handling them, it'll go over a lot better with the "old fuddy-duddies" :)

FanMade idea ALERT: Maybe just have the NINJA be able to deploy decoy drones of itself. They can detect stuff as the NINJA. Once one is attacked, it is destroyed and removed from play. It would have a cool Battleship game vibe to it: "You sank my NINJA decoy drone!"...lol. The NINJA can carry up to 6? DDs and pays ? VP for each DD it carries. Up to 6 DDs may be actively deployed at one time. This limit is also how many can be stacked in a hex and for every DD in the same hex when detecting mines a +1 modifier to detect and avoid mines is added to the detection roll. So if you want to move your NINJA through a dangerous minefield, group up your decoy drones in the same hex as the NINJA and move out. The more you use this way, the better your chance of making it through unscathed. These can be called "ghosts" or decoy drones, technically they are drones that project a NINJA decoy. But having ghosts of ghosts, and all the other minutia, as interesting as it sounds is just too much. This is a distilled, concise, and manageable version of that.

Originally Posted by HeatDeath

Maybe if the Ninja is re-conceptualized as an Ogre-killer, and more [most?] of the enhancements are various colorful ways to inconvenience an Ogre you're dueling, Ninja v. Ninja duels would get the cool effect the current rules draft is obviously aiming for.

I always considered the NINJA, in addition to being a "stealthy raider" just that...an OGRE Killer, and Fortification Killer. Imho, the official mention of the NINJA not being designed to go toe-to-toe against OGREs is a misnomer. Rather, it should be stated, it was PRIMARILY designed to go against non-OGRE targets. For example, why would you not want to deploy a NINJA that was kitted out properly to seek-and-destroy another enemy OGRE as a mission specific objective. The FanMade idea of a Combine attack using NINJA on the Gdansk Facility that produced the Paneuropean HUSCARL is a great example that would make a fun Scenario I now just thought of. The NINJA was fielded in 2080 and the HUSCARL in "2081: Paneuropean "Huscarl," a modified Mark V, enters full-scale production at Gdansk in late November." OM Timeline. We can do this.

Originally Posted by wolf90

Which brings us to this point. Anything can be used, or not used, within the system. That is definitely part of the the beauty of the Ogre game system. And it was a conscious decision to have the "old Ninja" be an easily made version within these rules - the only thing truly new and "required" is the ghost rules. Players can choose to use, or not use, any parts of the proposed rules.

It really comes down to "I simply don't think this belongs in OGRE" for some people. Now it's up to Combine engineers to convince them otherwise. ;)

Originally Posted by wolf90

Perhaps it will have no choices, and 2-3 options will be "built in" as "stock options".

I would welcome either this or being able to build your own.Which gives us two possible options. Pre-built versions and the more involved one where you are in a way playing Combine stealth engineers editing the NINJAs for specific missions. At this point I would say use both. Have core pre-built NINJAs and also the more complex ability to build your own. This would (I hope) satisfy everyone. Some will only use the pre-built while others will also be diving head long into the build-your-own NINJAs.

Originally Posted by wolf90

(And I mean it when I said that the Combat Engineering/Vulcan rules could use more critiquing. You guys have been waaaaaay too lenient in evaluating that case!)
D.

Drew...I wish I had more time for this because I have to painfully choose between the Vulcan and NINJA feedback because of that pesky "only so much time in the day" stuff...lol.

...which I would like to suggest the longer you leave stuff up before it "goes to press" the better. This is an enormous amount of stuff to be kicking around, who knows what may be reveled at the last moment. Just prolong that last moment as long as possible please.

Originally Posted by wolf90

This is a conversation that I had with Steve, questioning the very same thing. His response was that the Ninja was a Combine unit produced late in the war; resources were becoming scarce and it was the final "new" Ogre before empires collapsed. Had things held together longer and resources been more plentiful, there may have been more expanded use of the options that were proven field-tested and worthwhile. D.

...It all depends on how you define the words "expanded use". Perhaps that expanded use window grew exponentially more in that narrow window and more options were fielded, however, the overall result was the same. Limited use. That was a shameless long reach...haha

Originally Posted by wolf90

Additionally, the rank and file Ogres would have started developing countermeasures to some tricks. D.

...maybe this explains the Descartes Revolution...the OGREs interaction with the simulated and real threat of the stealth technology being created, ironically by the very same creators. Of course we would need rules to use these sophisticated OGREs in the game. ;)
Some have suggested a simple -1 To-Be-Hit for OGREs equipped with Descartes Packages.

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

That's a very interesting way to frame it. I would argue that there is a big difference between adding G.E.V. and adding Ninjas, though. The Ogre/G.E.V. combo is well-established as the de-facto standard for what makes up the Ogreverse. G.E.V. was a logical expansion that added flavor without being "weird". Shockwave introduced fundamental game changes with LOS for lasers, G.E.V. just focused on conventional unit warfare; fleshing out some details. That's a big difference from what the Ninja is bringing to the table.

I would say that it is stealth technology and not the NINJA itself necessarily that is what this is actually all about and represents the final Tier in OGRE that is being worked out here.

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

Ironically, even within "tiers" there are optional rules, and some have been around forever and still feel out of place/wrong (eg, mines are from Ogre, for crying out loud).

Don't touch my mines brah...lol

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by FJCestero

...

***Throws hands up in air with a comatose look on his face while his eyeballs bleed and screams:
"I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR ALL OF THIS COOL STUFF!!!"***

Seriously, that's a treasure trove of some cool ideas. Thanks for sharing. I'll comment more when I can.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Rattler : Standard 6/5 vanilla heavy missile.

An oldie but a goodie. ;)

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Javelin (+2 VP): 4/7 heavy missile. Does not work with Fi-Con Missiles. (This has been suggested elsewhere. Stolen from Nihon?)

Nice. This is really cool. Further range but less damage.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Trident (+4 VP): 3x3/5 MIRVs. Attacks three hexes, each at A3 (like MSL tanks). All in a tight cluster. Yes, three hexes, spread out. Can not combine for one A9 attack or anything like that. Only nearest has to be within 5 hex range (range bonus!). Also does not work with Fi-Con Missiles (b/c the smaller MIRVs can’t pack the extra sensors and stuff). For bunched up enemies. (One Rattler, or three bunched up MSLs? Decisions, decisions…).

Nice. I like the progression of missiles here.

To clarify, this hits three hexes in a triangle shape, right? Not a line or anything.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Inferno (+4 VP): Special/5. Area Denial. Shoot at hex. Anything in or that enter for rest of game takes an immediate A3 attack, or an A3 attack for each turn it's dumb enough to just stay there. OGREs that enter/stay have its treads attacked. No terrain defense bonuses apply. DOES work with Fi-Con Missiles. For ‘corking’ that one hex the enemy has to get through to get at you.

Nice. A sort of one hex Nuke-Napalm.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Bugeye (+5 VP): -/7 heavy missile. Sensor Cloud. Scans hex for mines, powered down units, etc. etc. What really comes in handy is that the sensor cloud also eliminates any terrain defense bonuses for any unit for that hex for the rest of the game! Infantry hiding in towns better watch out! DOES work with Fi-Con Missiles. (when you NEED to neutralize one hex).

Nice. Very NINJAish, very cool.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

School Bus (+10 VP): Candy-gram of your favorite kinetics and self-forging warheads: range 7, trace the route (no backtracks, no loops, no stay-and-attack-agains: just drop the kids off and keep going). Everything you over-fly takes A2. Enough blam! to clear a path, or disable enemies before you run them over. . (pretty powerful, nerfed it to A2, maybe drop the range to 5?).

Nice. A sort of Nuke-Shotgun blast.

Range 5 sounds reasonable, and I think this should be in a straight line.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Lawn Mower (+5 VP): Infantry killer. 6/5 like standard Rattler, but cluster/FAE munitions deny infantry any cover or terrain benefits. Only A1 versus non-infantry targets, and/or one A1 attack on Ogre treads. (just like a standard Rattler, but tailored to infantry. no extra brain-cells required).

Nice.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Pepperpot (+5 VP): Tactical Missile Launcher. 3/4 just like a MSL tank with effectively unlimited ammo, instead of a 1-shot 6/5. (Sustained fire versus alpha strike?)

Nice. This is really cool.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Comm-Link (+?? VP): Not a missile, but a shielded comm-dish in a Rattler silo. By up-linking to one of the few remaining recon-sats allows Ninja to best chose time and place of attack. Game effect: all enemy reinforcements delayed by one turn. Also allows Ninja and allied units to set up last, regardless of scenario description. (Out-of-the-box scenario variety).

Nice. This is really cool.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Belisarius : (+33.3% of total cost). Once in game, steal a march on opponent. Instead of IGUG, IGUG turn sequence is: IGIG, UGUG. You get to go twice in a row, but afterwards your enemy gets to go twice too (if you use this correctly there won’t be much of him left). Return to IGUG afterwards. Very powerful, probably too much, but it is SIMPLE! This represents genius-level tactics by the AI.

Nice. This is really, really cool. Very NINJAish...and/or very OGRE equipped with Descartes Package cool.

How does the cost work?

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Subedei : (+15% of total cost). Unit gains 1 MP during 2nd Move Phase, like a GEV, but with OGRE move-class. This can not qualify for a road bonus. Subedei is just good at 'reading' terrain and dodging.

Nice. I always thought it would be cool to somehow allow the NINJA some sort of enhanced maneuvering.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Ram plate: (10 VP). +1D6 damage done, -1D6 damage taken in ram when mounting OGRE does the ramming. No effect otherwise.

One of my favorites. Well done.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Cleated Treads: (10 VP). Not practical for general use as they wear out quickly, but for special mission Ninjas… Swamps are still 2MP, but no ‘sticking’, the price paid is no ‘road bonus’ either.

Very situational, but very cool.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

Tow: (?? VP). Ninja can now drag stuff around. Depends on scenario...

Nice. This is a really cool option that should be an exception for the NINJA. Who knows what mission specific uses it may have.

[Dave Crowell]

It adds a bit of book keeping, but not too much, but I really like the Ghost concept. In a game where units are firing tactical nuclear munitions to target single vehicles within a 1.5 kilometer area I think "sensor ghosts" that spoof the enemy into thinking they have a target is great.

I will take another pass through the Ninja tool kit, but off the top of my head, I think it currently suffering from mission creep. I am not sure what it is supposed to do. It has stealth, new attacks, zombies, puppet master, ducklings, all sorts of missiles. It has lost a clearly focused role.

[FJCestero]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

***Throws hands up in air with a comatose look on his face while his eyeballs bleed and screams:
"I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR ALL OF THIS COOL STUFF!!!"***

Seriously, that's a treasure trove of some cool ideas. Thanks for sharing. I'll comment more when I can.

You're welcome. Except for the bleeding eyeballs, I mean. :)

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

To clarify, this hits three hexes in a triangle shape, right? Not a line or anything.

You got it.

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

Nice. A sort of Nuke-Shotgun blast.

Range 5 sounds reasonable, and I think this should be in a straight line.

My 'vision' was for something like one of those sub-munition dispensers the RAF used on its Tornadoes for runway denial. It's basically a missile bus handing out explosives as it flies along. Maneuver is important. If it can only go in a line then the graininess of the hex board vastly limits its utility.

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

How does the cost work?

Add up everything else, then add the percentage shown. Thus if you take a Ninja (150 VP) with say 60 VPs of extra, plus the Belisarius Descartes package your total VP cost is 210 + 33.333% or 210 + 70 = 280 total.

AI's are cost multipliers, not additives.

[offsides]

OK, I've had a little epiphany about the whole ghost concept after reading Francisco's idea about stripped down SHVYs rather than drones. The whole ghost concept is a good idea, but there's several flaws with the decoupling of location stealth and targeting stealth. If a Ninja has such good ECM/spoofing that it can hide which hex it's in (and even hide which hex it fired from), then how can long-range weapons target a specific part of something that might be a Ninja? Unless you've got close-range eyeballs on it, Ninjas should be untargetable by directed fire - and yes, this means they're effectively invincible since spillover doesn't affect Ogres. But spillover can be used for detection purposes, by potentially identifying ghosts.

Proposal 1: A Ninja's components cannot be targeted by direct fire unless there is at least 1 defender within close LOS

In order for any defending units to attack a Ninja's components, at least one defending unit must have LOS on the Ninja as follows:

• A Ninja in clear terrain can be targeted from 3 hexes away.
• A Ninja in swamp or rubble can be targeted from 2 hexes away.
• A Ninja in town or forest can be targeted from 1 hex away.
• A Ninja underwater can only be targeted in an overrun.
• Forest and town hexes block LOS if between the defender and the Ninja, swamp and rubble hexes add +1 hex to the effective distance for determining if the Ninja can be targeted.
• If a defending unit has LOS to target a 'Ninja', it is automatically identified as being either a ghost or the real thing.

Thus, if a Ninja is in non-clear terrain, and there's a non-clear hex between the Ninja and the defender, it cannot be targeted or identified. A Ninja in clear terrain can be targeted from 2 hexes away if there's swamp/rubble in between, but forest/town blocks it.

This also eliminates the need for duplicate record sheets, since you cannot target individual components without already having identified if it's the real Ninja or not.

Proposal 2: Spillover fire can be used to differentiate between ghosts and the real Ninja

Attacks against an unidentified Ninja are made as attacks on the hex, with a spillover attack (1/2 strength) going against the 'Ninja'. If an 'X' is rolled (what would normally be reduced to a 'D'), a ghost's spoofing is disrupted just enough to cause it to flicker, whereas a Ninja is unaffected. Game effect is that the target is identified as either a ghost or the real Ninja.

This then raised another issue in my head, which takes a bit more discussion. Namely, that once the Ninja has been identified, the ghosts (identified or not) become pretty much useless (not to mention expensive wastes of resources). And that got me thinking about what the pros and cons of both types of ghosts were along with how they might be useful once the Ninja was identified.

Drone Swarm:

Pro:

• Small, don't use much raw materials.
• Can be split up to create a new ghost from a ghost.
• If identified but not destroyed, can 'go silent' and try to escape/return to the Ninja.

Con:

• Visually cannot be mistaken for a real Ninja.
• No ability to add any sort of offensive firepower.
• ECM/spoofing is pretty much useless underwater.
• Not likely to survive any sort of close call with a nuke.
• Very limited endurance (not relevant at game scale, but still important).
• Even if evacuated, town hexes probably have sufficient sensors/spotters in it to be able to radio in "THERE'S AN OGRE HERE" or not, thus making a drone swarm in a town hex likely to be discovered as such.

Modified SHVY/Mk I:

Pro:

• Much easier to visually spoof.
• Existing chassis means potentially faster/easier to develop.
• Potential to add limited firepower to give the ghost better survivability/utility once discovered.

Con:

• Once discovered, it can't just disapper.
• Cannot split itself to generate a new ghost.
• Cannot be carried by the Ninja when not 'in use'.
• Requires a much larger amount or raw materials to produce.
• Even if they can fight, they're still woefully underpowered against almost anything.

Clearly, there is no clear better way of doing things. That said, I kind of prefer using a modified SHVY or Mk I for a couple of reasons. First, once discovered it has a but more use on the battlefield than being a mobile bag of money waiting to be nuked. And second, as much as the idea of spawning new ghosts is nice, it adds more complexity to an already complex situation. Of course, if you use a modified Mk I you need record sheets for that too, but at least it can potentially fire back rather than just being a target sink that ultimately just goes poof...

For reference, using the Cobb formula I came up with this as a modified Mk I: 1 SB, 2 AP, 12 Treads (M4), Ninja Stealth, 28VP. Given that without the Ninja Stealth the current Ninja proposal is 97VP, adding 2 of the modified Mk I's as the stealth system brings it back up to ~150VP. Just sayin' :P

[selenite]

Originally Posted by wolf90

Finally, we have Tier Four - the Combat Engineering/Vulcan and Ninja rules. It is interesting that the Ninja has generated a wider spectrum of opinions than the Vulcan, despite the Vulcan rules actually being of far greater complexity and "less Ogre". Perhaps it is because the wide skill set is customizable in the Ninja and not the Vulcan? There definitely is a Car Wars feel to it that I haven't been able to scrub out. Maybe people have their own Ninja preconceptions, and anything outside of it seems "wrong"? Perhaps our forum members are all closet sappers? I don't know. But the Combat Engineering rules actually have many more game changing concerns than much of the Ninja rules, and yet have had very little push back (unfortunately).

You can list me among the closet sappers. In fact I think my Pyramid article has me out of the closet.

I'm not a huge fan of the Vulcan. But I'm having very different reactions to the Vulcan and Ninja. The Vulcan changes stuff, but not in a way that leaves the opponent totally outmaneuvered.

The Ninja, OTOH, put the defender in a box of developing entirely new strategies or not even knowing how to play the game. That's not fun for me.

So, no, I'm not going to provide individual feedback on each "trick." My feedback is that having a huge menu of tricks breaks the game, or at least changes it to a new level that needs a new name.