Alternate History - AD 400 magic returns. (help?)

[Jasonft]

New game, pretty cool group of players. GM places fantasy campaign AD 460 in the Kingdom of Mercia in what will become central England. Maybe. Rome retreated for reasons historical and otherwise.

Location and time chosen because historically pretty close to the standard fantasy setting. Problem is the group VERY easily dissolves into discussions about how this all changes history, and the Roman Empire in particular.

Much fun as that is, I kind of want to spend more time killing orcs so I thought I would post it here to the group mind to mull over and hopefully settle a few points.

Orcs? What about orcs? That's not historically accurate I hear you say...

To explain the setting: AD 400 all the doors to magic lands all over the world open up again. So far as anyone knows all at the same time. Magic floods back and makes mana levels high/ very high for a couple years before settling down into mostly normal mana. Pockets are higher of course, but normal mana is worldwide standard now.

The return of magic causes lots of random mutations of both adults and newborns much like that described in the game Shadowrun. Orcs, Trolls, Elves are now common in England. Dwarves, Elves, Giants, etc in Norway.

Pattern repeats worldwide so far as we know - some form of elf, a couple different types of big/ strong/ ugly, one or two other things that showed up in local legends from mythic history millennia ago. After this period passes almost all such spontaneous mutations stop and races breed true with members of the same race.

Humans still dominate by numbers, but Mercia (for an example) has a Troll kingdom on the border and something involving Orcs too. It's also substantially smaller than at 460 in normal history.

Mythic creatures are back, and especially famous mythic creatures. Many of the famous Greek legendary beasts and monsters are back and they are back more or less where legend says they were. This pattern also repeats worldwide so far as we know.

I imagine Sea Serpents and Kraken are genuine concerns now in addition to the usual run of pirates and storms.

So far as we know Magery 0 is fairly common and a bit more than one in ten people can do basic spells. Higher levels of magery occur but are progressively more and more rare. Being as it is only sixty years or so since magic came back almost none of the really esoteric spells are in human hands (assume Magery 2 spells are rare and Magery 3 spells almost non existent in addition to being jealously guarded).

Going through the doors into magic lands of course gives you the option of making deals with Fey/ Gods/ Demons depending on your area's myths but the prices might be your soul and almost never work out the way you expect.

Religious rituals work (mostly) and gods or things pretending to be gods are responding to worshipers. Not always of course, and certainly not always the way the worshiper expects, but Faith gets provable results now. Yes, Jewish mystics have working Golems again among other things.

Life expectancy and population density are both higher due to magic as blessing crops and payers for healing would likely be among the first spells that become widespread. Circles of Earth mages chanting up giant earthen ramparts to protect against siege attract almost no surprise.

This is the world our game is set in. For sanity's sake I think we can assume anyone important enough to be named in current historical records of the period survives the initial magic surge and does not mutate into something unpleasant.


How does this change the unfolding of history? Did the Roman Empire(s) get punched in the Face or stabbed in the Vitals? Does Christianity still come to dominate in the face of all this mythic disruption? This is what our discussions run around in circles about...



For my part I wonder most about Egypt. From what I understand Egyptian grain fed Rome and it's descendant Empires. If the trade routes are seriously disrupted for a couple years followed by necromancers and Mythic God Kings, can Byzantium and Rome still feed themselves? Just what do those Pyramids do once magic comes back?

You get the idea. Thoughts anyone?

[Jasonft]

Sorry that was so long. I kept finding more details as I went.

[Tuk the Weekah]

Originally Posted by Jasonft

Sorry that was so long. I kept finding more details as I went.

Who got Magic first? That will answer nearly all your questions about what post-magic history looks like. Magic in your scenario would be like The Bomb in the 20th Century, and if one side (pagan Rome, Christian Rome, Arian barbarians, pagan barbarians) got it first, then they would get to define the next 100 years, regardless of how quickly the rest came up to steam.

By the way, Egypt was far less important to Rome as a breadbasket by 400 AD than Africa. Also worth note: at the time period you are looking at, Rome's population had fallen from a peak of perhaps as much as 1.5 million to perhaps as low as 200-500 K, and was full of abandoned buildings, which were either occupied by squatters or mined for stone for new construction. There's a pretty good summary of the population decline of Rome throughout the Dark Ages here.

[Greg 1]

Do gods reliably indicate who is and who is not in favor?

A lot of the rivalries between folk worshiping the same god disappear if that god makes His opinions clear.

[hal]

To echo one poster, you are going to need to start at the beginning as to how magic functioned before the change, and what comes after. How does the church respond to the change in Rome.

Maybe the Druids in Ireland and England got their licks in first. Maybe tribal witch doctors get first awareness of what is going on.

Then you have to decide what spells are known at first and what aren't. Master/apprentice systems for magical learning are different than schools or academies. Spell research that has a patronage backing is different than spell research done by a village mage with limited resources.

Cultures rarely change over night. If for example, a Roman legion is destroyed with the help of magic, then Rome might ramp up magical training much as it did in undertaking the building of a navy from scratch. If the GODS come back, Christianity might not remain dominant. If Christian mages cast magic in the name of God, maybe it strengthens the religion. Remember, witch hunting doesn't take place until later.

Suggestion? Create a time line of when magic re-enters the world and create seed groups of practicing mages. Detail how many, starting resources, and culture regarding magic (secret or open, revered or feared, political goals if any, and take it from there.

What system of magic are you using? What happened when the curse hit (ie when the humans became non-human)?

A implies B. B implies C. Can't get to C without B, can't get to B without A.

[David Johnston2]

Magically induced mutant births aren't a very good way to insure that you end up with armies of orcs because they'll be too interspersed with unchanged humanity. It would probably be a better approach to have orc armies march through one or more of the "gates".

[hal]

One thing you might want to consider is looking up some of the In Nomine material regarding how Christianity's Angels banished the Gods to the dream world. Perhaps the banishment was only temporary and the Gods and mythical creatures come back.

Now, if you wanted to be cute about it - the gateway as mentioned by David, could be from the Dreamlands. Perhaps Orcs are really the long lost Neanderthals. Perhaps they were human in every sense of the word to the extent that they could breed with normal humans, and in reality, modern man is partially Neanderthal in its genetic structure. That is why Orcs (Neanderthals) can still mate with human women and have viable off-spring.

As for the Elves? The legends concerning the Tuatha de Danann seems that the Elves started off human in the first place, and later acquired certain traits that would become the legendary Irish Elves (or Sidhe). If ANY group might have magic from the onset, it would be them. Hell, if you want to establish a pedigree of magic, the Druids only know what the Sidhe taught them, and jealously guarded saying "this can be known, and no more".

One thing you might want to consider for your campaign would be the Firbolgs - the ones who can't breed true. Such individuals seem to be either magically cursed, or genetically damaged to the extent that they would have to steal human women just to breed at all.

Then you have India, with its legends. Legends speak of giant arrows that slew cities with the power of the sun. In the Dead Sea area - there exist various fragments of material that can only come into existence in really HOT temperatures, fusing sand into certain material. Said material was not unlike that formed at the testing grounds for the first nuclear weapon.

What you use for your mythology or game world is totally up to you, but having it interlock with itself and your world might offer you more adventure possibilities for your players and for you as a GM, as one "foundational" aspect of your game world suggests other possibilities.

If the Tuatha were fighting against a foe, in order for that fight to not be a rout that the Irish proto-elves will win, then they had to have a foe of equal capabilities (if not in magic, then perhaps in numbers?).

You might even want to consider the prospects of Atlantis as part of your game world "legends". Does reincarnation exist within your game world? Can a person enter the death realms and return to the land of the living? Perhaps they can return, but are forever unable to tell of their experience or talk ever again.

Don't just start with a "like this only different". Build your world form the past and move it forward into the future. Maybe the witch doctors of Africa learned rituals from an ancient Indian culture from before. Maybe Inda's culture had some refugees from Atlantis settle down there. Perhaps ONE immortal Atlantean ended up in South America, and started the Aztec or even Mayan foundation in the supernatural. Perhaps Divination spells in conjunction with mathematics made the Mayans aware of things that man was never meant to know. Perhaps out of fear of their enemies, the Mayans closed gateways and disappeared unexpectedly.

You are not only the creator of your world, but the world's foremost historian. Weave real world legends together with your own and make your world come to life. :)

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by hal

...
Now, if you wanted to be cute about it - the gateway as mentioned by David, could be from the Dreamlands. Perhaps Orcs are really the long lost Neanderthals. Perhaps they were human in every sense of the word to the extent that they could breed with normal humans, and in reality, modern man is partially Neanderthal in its genetic structure. That is why Orcs (Neanderthals) can still mate with human women and have viable off-spring.
...

Works for fantasy but the interbreeding with neanderthals happened only once or a few times, 100k+ years ago, and only between their males and our females since we have no shared mitochondrial D.N.A. So it's very unlikely modern interbreeding would be common if possible.

[mr beer]

I would spend some time doing thought experiments to come up with cool ideas but at some point I would decide what I liked the sound of the most and then I'd make sure the alternate history justified it.

You can go round in circles forever about what might happen in any ahistorical scenario and particularly with something so incredibly important and widespread as this.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Works for fantasy but the interbreeding with neanderthals happened only once or a few times, 100k+ years ago, and only between their males and our females since we have no shared mitochondrial D.N.A. So it's very unlikely modern interbreeding would be common if possible.

Point is, if the "Magic Returns", the ability to procreate together may also be returned. It is the GM's world, and his metaphysics to work with (or not).

Mind you, the idea is to help explain some of the "races" that came into being once the magic returned to full strength. Presumably, the magic works under relatively rare circumstances prior to the return, and once returned, permits the practitioners greater latitude.

Chances are - the originator of this thread won't be interested in the proposals. Then again, perhaps so. Who knows. ;)