Magery pointless?

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

No, it means reduced from their zero-cost value. A Per of 11 costs zero points for an IQ 11 individual.

Thats how I read it also.

Nymdok

P.S. I house rule it to not count against and balance it by Dissads < 25% Total.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Ego Archive

Actually, I think that is exactly what I was looking for. Magery will give a bonus to reaction rolls with other magic users, and be a requirement for purchasing ER. I'll probably be a bit more conservative with my campaign, something like *3. Thanks!

*3 was actually what I was thinking, but I know GURPS in general seems to love multiples of 5. Also, the fact your mage will be able to learn Thaumotology a bit more quickly from time-use sheets is nice as well. I'd personally probably cap the reaction bonus at +4 (you can generally only buy 4 levels of a talent, and the other talent-like bonuses for Magery are capped at Magery 4 anyway).


As for the side discussion of buying down stats, it's really up the GM if things like IQ! count toward the disad limit. Personally I probably wouldn't have it do so, but I would limit the Per/Will adjustment to +/-30% or so (just like HP with ST, or FP with HT). I do agree that the RAW implies such a thing should count toward the disad limit - there is no option to buy up IQ without raising Per and Will, only an option to lower Per and Will after the fact. Bad Grip on a character with high DX is still a Disadvantage after all, even if he outperforms all DX 10 normal people.

[trooper6]

Buying down Will/Per certainly does count against the Disad Limit RAW...but note, RAW suggests a higher disad limit default than old 3e had as default. 3e default was -40 Disads, -5 Quirks. 4e default is 1/2 of the character total...including everything that is a reduction, including buying down Will/Per...etc.

Note, you can not reduce Will/Per by more than 4 no matter what. (RAW).

But I do think the original question is being skewed unfairly. The original question is: Is Magery pointless?

Then we get this setup: "If I have an IQ 15 (12 Will/Per) & Magery 3 vs. IQ 12 & Magery 6, what do I gain?"

Some things to note. RAW does not even recommend letting player get that much Magery, because it is so powerful. If you want to ask the question is Magery pointless you should compare IQ 18 & Magery 0 vs. IQ15 Magery 3. The Mage with the Magery is going to be at a huge advantage.

Also, someone mentioned only combat mages needing Magery, the others doing well with IQ!. Yeah...you buy down your Per and Will and see what happens when I start throwing Will based effects at you...some Mind Control perhaps? Some Will based Afflictions? Yeah...you'll be sad then. Or sneaky ninjas? Yeah, you have not so great Perception...sad again.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Also, someone mentioned only combat mages needing Magery, the others doing well with IQ!. Yeah...you buy down your Per and Will and see what happens when I start throwing Will based effects at you...some Mind Control perhaps? Some Will based Afflictions? Yeah...you'll be sad then. Or sneaky ninjas? Yeah, you have not so great Perception...sad again.

Which would be significant, if Magery did any more for your Will and Perception than IQ! does.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Which would be significant, if Magery did any more for your Will and Perception than IQ! does.

75pts

PC1
IQ 12 [40]
--Will 12 [0]
--Per 12 [0]
Magery 3 [35]

PC2
IQ 15 [100]
--Will 12 [-15]
--Per 12 [-15]
Magery 0 [5]

PC1 Will be able to cast any of the spells in the book. Will be able to throw big fireballs. Will be able to heal a lot.
PC2? Won't.

No. Magery is not pointless.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

No, it means reduced from their zero-cost value. A Per of 11 costs zero points for an IQ 11 individual.

Well, how do you know that?

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Also, someone mentioned only combat mages needing Magery, the others doing well with IQ!. Yeah...you buy down your Per and Will and see what happens when I start throwing Will based effects at you...some Mind Control perhaps? Some Will based Afflictions? Yeah...you'll be sad then. Or sneaky ninjas? Yeah, you have not so great Perception...sad again.

In addition to Ulzgoroth's comment, note that you're talking about combat situations. That isn't so much "Magery is superior to IQ!" as "Combat builds are superior to non-combat builds." In fact, in those situations, IQ! may well be superior to Magery. IQ! might be usable to identify the source of the mind control, or (with a suitably lenient GM) even usable to trap the attacker in a logic loop/puzzle/trap. IQ! could help you figure out what you can do to get rid of that nasty Affliction before it expires. IQ! helps you convince the ninjas you aren't the wizard they're looking for (Fast-Talk and/or Acting), figure out who might have sent them, or remember there's a nearby trapdoor that leads to an escape room that has been magically warded to paralyze anyone it hasn't been attuned to. Of course, a combat mage (with high Magery) might have spells that would help a good deal in these situations.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Well, how do you know that?

Because I assume the game is written using standard English with the clearest and simplest definition of a term being the most likely intended meaning.

EDIT: To elaborate: Secondary stats are derived from Primary stats. The standard Will or Per for an IQ 10 human is 10, but the standard Will or Per for an IQ 12 human is 12, not the racial average of 10. If a character has a DX of 20 but takes Hamfisted, surely you wouldn't argue that the points from Hamfisted don't count towards the disad limit because they don't lower his rolls below 10?

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by trooper6

75pts

PC1
IQ 12 [40]
--Will 12 [0]
--Per 12 [0]
Magery 3 [35]

PC2
IQ 15 [100]
--Will 12 [-15]
--Per 12 [-15]
Magery 0 [5]

PC1 Will be able to cast any of the spells in the book. Will be able to throw big fireballs. Will be able to heal a lot.
PC2? Won't.

No. Magery is not pointless.

I'm not completely certain why you quoted what you did. Your earlier examples (the ones Ulzgoroth quoted) were indicating why Magery was superior to IQ! by using situations that capitalize on the (relatively) low Will and Per of the IQ! character. These two characters are essentially equally vulnerable to Mind Control, Will-based Afflictions, and sneaky ninjas.

Magery has a point to it. The examples you give here are part of it. The examples Ulzgoroth responded to were not.

[Gudiomen]

All negative traits count against the disad limit, it's been cleared up a few times before. It's a fix from 3e, search for Kromm's posts on the subject.