[DF] Replacing a dead/retired character, what CP build total?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

So let's say your 400 point character just died to a dragon (or whatever), their body is utterly destroyed, and you have to make another. Everyone else is equally powerful, they've got many hundreds of CP under their belts. You, however, are now forced to start over at 250 points!

In cases like this, I'd generally restart you at 25 points less than the other players, just like buying an Extra Life.

Or, lets say your character, having defeated said dragon, is now rich beyond your dreams. Reminded of your mortality due to the loss of a friend during the fight, (and a little bored of the character you've been playing for the last year) you decide to settle down and start your own inn. You effectively retire from adventuring, and look to make a new character. Your new character will obviously be joining your former characters companions, who are all 400+ points... but you'll be a novice just out of training with 250 points!

This one is negotiable. It shouldn't be required to be lower than the first case since you could after all achieve that by doing insanely reckless stuff until you die. But if you've got a good story reason I'd let you start at equal points. Do expect a veto on any character designs that don't look like something you could have built up from a starting character though. Of course if you are doing this because you are bored, starting with a lower point value character might be what you need to make it an interesting challenge, so I'm not going to require you to start even with the party if you don't want.

Or, lets say you're just a friend who's never played before, and happen to be over during the game. You watch this epic dragon fight go down, and get really interested and want to join in next session. So you learn the rules, and decide what sort of character you want to play, and then roll em up... on only 250 points, hardly an equal to the legends you saw slay that dragon!

I'd recommend a one shot or mini-campaign with new characters for everybody. Overloading a newbie with a complex character in an existing party in the first session seems like a good way not to bring him back, and screwing up the existing campaign for everybody else if he does something really dumb isn't so good either. If you are then joining the existing campaign, I see no reason not to add enough points to your character to be in the vicinity of everybody else.

[Kromm]

A fun concept is to start the newbie at 250 points but advance her character to the level of the least-powerful veteran over the course of the next n sessions, where n is a small(ish) number. For instance, if your lowest-powered PC is at 418 points and delvers typically earn 3 points/session, you might give the newbie 31 points/session for six sessions. At the end of that cycle, both adventurers will have 436 points. If that seems too steep, then go for 15 points/session for 14 sessions or whatever . . . pick a pace that suits the player's gaming experience. Once the new character has caught up, she earns points at the same rate as everybody else. If you need a game-world explanation, justify it as the newbie being inspired and instructed by example – those first six (or 14, or whatever) sessions amount to gaming out her training montage.

This generally leaves Extra Life attractive (no delay returning to one's former power level, no cap at the level of the least-powerful veteran, and no loss of gains that aren't normally for sale in the campaign). It also results in a character built up gradually, on earned points, rather than imagined with DX 20, IQ 20 out of the gate. And it introduces completely new players to the deep end of the pool over the course of n sessions instead of chucking them in immediately. The only downsides are the need to do a little math and the time required to cope with someone spending a bunch of points every session.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

The real problem is that the player who sits there with the underpowered character may very well be afraid to speak up, to voice his dissatisfaction, because this hobby is rampant with accusations of immaturity, munchkinry and so forth.

I've never met the player who would be afraid to speak up. It sounds like you've had a bizarre and unrepresentative experience with the hobby if such behavior has been the norm in your groups. I haven't seen it in over 34 years in several cities and among hundreds of gamers.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Kromm

A fun concept is to start the newbie at 250 points but advance her character to the level of the least-powerful veteran over the course of the next n sessions, where n is a small(ish) number. For instance, if your lowest-powered PC is at 418 points and delvers typically earn 3 points/session, you might give the newbie 31 points/session for six sessions. At the end of that cycle, both adventurers will have 436 points. If that seems too steep, then go for 15 points/session for 14 sessions or whatever . . . pick a pace that suits the player's gaming experience. Once the new character has caught up, she earns points at the same rate as everybody else. If you need a game-world explanation, justify it as the newbie being inspired and instructed by example – those first six (or 14, or whatever) sessions amount to gaming out her training montage.

Some RPG systems give out XP based on the degree of challenge overcome. That is, instead of every PC getting the same amount of XP, they get different amounts. If one faced a huge challenge, he gets a lot of XP, while another who faced little challenge gets few. (Or the "challenge" thing may be one component of the XP award process.)

That same principle can be used in GURPS. If four characters go on a dungeoncrawl, and stay mostly together, facing the same challenges, it may still reasonably be seen to be a tough challenge for the 250 CP newbie, but a much easier crawl for the two 325 CP veterans, and a walk in the park for the 400 CP guy. So the 250 CP newbie deserves more CP.

The question is whether that'll enable him to catch up witin a reasonable time frame, and I don't think it will. But it will help reduce the degree of inequality, especially at first

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

"I am Krom! Destroyer of Undeadia!"
"I am Thuvalious! Master of a Thousand Magics!"
"I am the Grey Cat! It is I who stole the pants from the Sultan of Al'kazam while he was wide awake!"
"I am Mang! I shatter boulders with a singe touch!"

"I'm Bill! I kill goblins."

"Next applicant!"

"I'm George! It is I who single-handedly slew the Dragon of the Dread Mountains!"

"Welcome, George."

---------

In other words, realistically, your world-changing heroes will look for adventuring companions of comparable power, otherwise the new guy will be a liability (as someone else said).

If Bill the Goblin-Slayer joins that group of heroes, he's going to stick out like a glass cup at a bull stampede.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

In other words, realistically, your world-changing heroes will look for adventuring companions of comparable power, otherwise the new guy will be a liability (as someone else said).

If Bill the Goblin-Slayer joins that group of heroes, he's going to stick out like a glass cup at a bull stampede.

There is some truth to that! Still, it's hard to command a battleship when you're still earning your master's license for a tugboat. It's also a little unfair to players who have 25 points locked up in Extra Life if delvers who die bounce back at nearly their old level, likely with more-efficient characters. Thus, it's often a good idea for meta-game reasons – player experience and fairness to those who bought insurance – to entertain a couple of fantasy tropes. One of these is high-end heroes taking on apprentices and novices; another is the fiery forge of adventure leading "ordinary" people to discover impressive hidden gifts and destinies. Asking the players of veteran PCs to respect these conventions and cover the newbie for the five or 10 sessions it takes for him to come up to speed is both practical and in keeping with the genre.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by Kromm

There is some truth to that! Still, it's hard to command a battleship when you're still earning your master's license for a tugboat. It's also a little unfair to players who have 25 points locked up in Extra Life if delvers who die bounce back at nearly their old level, likely with more-efficient characters. Thus, it's often a good idea for meta-game reasons – player experience and fairness to those who bought insurance – to entertain a couple of fantasy tropes. One of these is high-end heroes taking on apprentices and novices; another is the fiery forge of adventure leading "ordinary" people to discover impressive hidden gifts and destinies. Asking the players of veteran PCs to respect these conventions and cover the newbie for the five or 10 sessions it takes for him to come up to speed is both practical and in keeping with the genre.

There's also a good reason to have at least a few followers along, who, while built on less points than a PC, could have a heroic moment and become the PC of a player whose last character died.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

In my current game, part of the charm is that everyone starts at 250 . . . and losing your guy permanently is a serious risk and sets you back quite a bit.

In my old game, that wouldn't work as well. So I'd start new guys between the starting value of the game and the lowest-point PC. So if you start at 250 and everyone is at 375-450, you start at 313 points.

That's worked pretty well for us.

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's also a little unfair to players who have 25 points locked up in Extra Life if delvers who die bounce back at nearly their old level, likely with more-efficient characters.

This is definatly a concern. Some of the things I do to avert this problem is:
1) Gear. If the old char has magic gear the new char doesn't get it. Why should he?

2) Not all point are equal. Frex If a party has gaind a +2 Rep for Monster Hunting & a higher wealth level, the new char will not get those advantages & will not get the points either. (As many players would rather have an extra 20pts for what they want instead of a mandated +2rep & comfortable wealth it could be seen as an advantage to 'kill-off' ones char to get those reward pts)

Things like loosing out on certain gear or advantages may encourage players to invest in extra life.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

The real problem is that the player who sits there with the underpowered character may very well be afraid to speak up, to voice his dissatisfaction, because this hobby is rampant with accusations of immaturity, munchkinry and so forth.

According to my notes from the last twenty years, I have ran nearly 300 campaigns/on-shots in various gaming systems and have had just shy over 200 players (30% female, 70% male). Of those 200 players, I have only ever encountered one person who wouldn't speak up if he felt slighted and he wasn't what I would call a serious gamer - he did it because his brother did. This does not include games I've played in (that's a separate data set).

Originally Posted by Kromm

I've never met the player who would be afraid to speak up. It sounds like you've had a bizarre and unrepresentative experience with the hobby if such behavior has been the norm in your groups. I haven't seen it in over 34 years in several cities and among hundreds of gamers.

Yeah, this pretty much. I've not been gaming as long as you, but I live in a area with a huge number of gamers (Navy town) and I've almost never seen this behavior in others games and extremely rarely in my own.