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Old 01-10-2018, 02:34 AM   #1
Ultraviolet
 
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Default [TG] A grapple is mutual?

TG p5, left column, heading "Control Points" says Grappling is mutual.

So if A grapples B, then B can perform any maneuvre or technique requiring a grapple to initate? I know B suffers penalties for A's CP, but still...A grapples B, B responds with a Judo Throw. Bam!

So the skilled grappler need not initiate the fight, he can bait the less skilled opponent into doing some of the work. Sounds reasonable.

Also: Wow, I really want to use grappling. I mean I already do, our Cliffhangers see more fisticuffs than gunplay, but awesome factor just increased.
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Old 01-10-2018, 03:06 AM   #2
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
TG p5, left column, heading "Control Points" says Grappling is mutual.

So if A grapples B, then B can perform any maneuvre or technique requiring a grapple to initate? I know B suffers penalties for A's CP, but still...A grapples B, B responds with a Judo Throw. Bam!

So the skilled grappler need not initiate the fight, he can bait the less skilled opponent into doing some of the work. Sounds reasonable.

Also: Wow, I really want to use grappling. I mean I already do, our Cliffhangers see more fisticuffs than gunplay, but awesome factor just increased.
Yep, of course A can also spend some of their CPs on the Throw QC to load up on top of the Control penalty, and since B has no CP they can't do the same

But yep TG is great I definitely recommend it!
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Old 01-10-2018, 03:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Yep, of course A can also spend some of their CPs on the Throw QC to load up on top of the Control penalty, and since B has no CP they can't do the same

But yep TG is great I definitely recommend it!
Ah yes, I think that was what I missed. A can't use his CP from the inital grapple offensively right away (unless making an AoA). But he can spend them defensively when B attempte to Throw.

If A is the lesser skilled (and/or weaker) of the two and makes a CP 0 grapple, he is in for a beating. B has no Active Control penalty, and A has no CP to make the Throw QC harder.

So maybe "Don't grapple unless you mean it"?
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Old 01-10-2018, 03:26 AM   #4
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
Ah yes, I think that was what I missed. A can't use his CP from the inital grapple offensively right away (unless making an AoA). But he can spend them defensively when B attempte to Throw.

If A is the lesser skilled (and/or weaker) of the two and makes a CP 0 grapple, he is in for a beating. B has no Active Control penalty, and A has no CP to make the Throw QC harder.

So maybe "Don't grapple unless you mean it"?
Heh yep

or don't grapple unless you have plan (of course A wasn't given a choice here)!
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Old 01-10-2018, 03:39 AM   #5
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Heh yep

or don't grapple unless you have plan (of course A wasn't given a choice here)!
Sure, but this is a major difference to grappling rules from Basic/MA. In those it was advantageous to be one to initiate a grapple, since the opponent had a flat -4 DX. if he was stonger, he would likely succeed in the Break Free contest - but that would take his action for the next round. So unless he made an AoA then the initial grappler could just grapple yet again.
This is actually the main gripe one of my more vocal players has with the (old) grappling rules. When a goon grapples him he is either screwed because of the -4 DX penalty and the pain likely to follow in the nest rounds. Or he Breaks free and is grapples again, with both parties wasting their time.
I need to convice him that TG fixes that!
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Old 01-10-2018, 03:57 AM   #6
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
Sure, but this is a major difference to grappling rules from Basic/MA. In those it was advantageous to be one to initiate a grapple, since the opponent had a flat -4 DX. if he was stonger, he would likely succeed in the Break Free contest - but that would take his action for the next round. So unless he made an AoA then the initial grappler could just grapple yet again.
This is actually the main gripe one of my more vocal players has with the (old) grappling rules. When a goon grapples him he is either screwed because of the -4 DX penalty and the pain likely to follow in the nest rounds. Or he Breaks free and is grapples again, with both parties wasting their time.
I need to convice him that TG fixes that!
Yep grappling in TG is much more dynamic back and forth between the grapplers, rather then the binary system in Basic that's "I've grappled you, I will break free of your grapple, I've grappeld you again...."

Of course TG also allows you to concentrate your efforts on breaking free as well as improving your CP by making an active grapple attack, or trying some other move, if you choose!
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:32 AM   #7
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
Sure, but this is a major difference to grappling rules from Basic/MA. In those it was advantageous to be one to initiate a grapple, since the opponent had a flat -4 DX. if he was stonger, he would likely succeed in the Break Free contest - but that would take his action for the next round. So unless he made an AoA then the initial grappler could just grapple yet again.
This is actually the main gripe one of my more vocal players has with the (old) grappling rules. When a goon grapples him he is either screwed because of the -4 DX penalty and the pain likely to follow in the nest rounds. Or he Breaks free and is grapples again, with both parties wasting their time.
I need to convice him that TG fixes that!
Have you read my intro series on grappling on my blog? There's a whole bunch of them, starting with Technical Grappling: The Basics.

In any case, let's start at the end before I have to nip off to work.

1) Grappling is not meant to be fast under realistic "two folks fighting each other and aware of it" circumstances. So "grapple, break free, more grapple, more break free" is an accurate, though not terribly fun, representation of what - in the abstract - most wrestling matches actually look like.

For cinematically awesome grapplers, Technical Grappling, through the medium of the measure of a grapple's quality in control points, allows for huge stuff faster.

2) The reason for "grapples are mutual" is quite simple: they are. If you grab my wrist, I can manipulate your arm until you let go. Many self defense techniques are initiated using exactly this principle.

But if you grab me for the standard -4 to DX from a regular grapple, in TG it's because you've grappled me for 8 CP, and I'm also -4 to ST. So not only am I much less coordinated using the grappled body part(s), I'm less effective (-2 to damage from -4 to ST). Even so, if I'm a great grappler, and outstrip my foe in might and skill, I can still attack to break free or just attack, or, since grapples are mutual, try and attack to apply a joint lock directly (which can be done at full skill, even assuming you've not bought it up).

so in TG, if someone grapples you, you can grapple back, and *freely allocate* rolled control points to breaking his grapple or grappling him yourself. You'll be at a bit of a disadvantage due to his control points on you, but if grappling is your forte, you're likely to have taken advantage of ST, Trained ST, Lifting ST, and skill.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:30 AM   #8
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Have you read my intro series on grappling on my blog? There's a whole bunch of them, starting with Technical Grappling: The Basics.

So I started reading the blog - very useful. I especially like the example of the Wrestler vs the Judoka.

Thanks
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:39 AM   #9
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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so in TG, if someone grapples you, you can grapple back, and *freely allocate* rolled control points to breaking his grapple or grappling him yourself.
Wait what? Citation please?
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:55 AM   #10
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Default Re: [TG] A grapple is mutual?

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Wait what? Citation please?
I think DouglasCole is referring to you can make an grapple attack to improve your 0CP grapple (which you have because you have been grappled) and any CP you gain can than be used after in the normal way. Of course your efforts at grappling back is subject to any control penalties you are currently suffering from

Last edited by Tomsdad; 01-12-2018 at 05:45 AM.
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