Survivable Guns Realism

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Half damage, double the armor divisors really does work pretty well. You *can* still die from a single shot that doesn't hit the brain or vitals - a high damage roll from a rifle shot will still take not too tough humans to -1 x HT occasionally - but it does a good job of ensuring most people shot once somewhere less vital will live if they get any medical care at all.

It's such a simple change that almost fixes so many complaints - including those about the implausible effectiveness of low tech missiles if you extend it to arrows and sling bullets - that I don't know why it isn't a more popular rule.

I'd argue the over penetration rules from HT gives you that anyway.

If you use bleeding the most a rifle bullet to the torso will be 1xHP damage (i.e putting you at 0 HP), and if you don't use bleeding the max is 2xHP (i.e putting you at -1xHP).

The benefit of this is it puts an upper cap on damage but keeps the variation of effects by round types below that (7.62 will almost always hit the limit, a 9mm much less often).

In fact given HP caps on Limbs, the only places you don't get capped damage is the vitals, neck, face and skull and most some of those have their own multipliers as well.

I think this has a much greater effect on the effects of gun shot wounds (especially the higher damage ones, but x3 and x4 location multipliers certainly increases the effect of small rounds as well) than the actually dice rolled. It's the higher damage rounds that are most effected by the halving as well.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Right, but like the Assault Vest is 12/5* (no plates), with the 12 being good against cutting and piercing. Now, I'm not certain, but I think it's not as good at stopping two handed swords and sling bullets as it is bullets. Or as good as heavy plate, you know?

I dunno, I guess I can see it. I just think it's kind of an edge case and I don't know if I'd tweak with rules to fix something that probably comes up fairly rarely in play.

In general I agree, but ballistic cloth is hard to cut (lets face it everything worthy of DR is hard to cut). Its also flexible so if you are wacking away with a 2 handed sword you might be getting some blunt trauma in there.

One thing with high tech armour it tends to cover less locations, and is less designed to cover chicks that might be targeted in melee than Plate so going for unarmoured locations in melee at TL8 might be more viable than say vs TL4 plate.

If nothing else high quality melee weapons become much cheaper and more available at Higher TLs so that DR5 vs imp is less effective in general at TL8 against TL8 melee weapons than it would be in TL4 against TL4 Melee weapons.

As you say it's all pretty fringe though, but I think a high quality fire axe with its pick end will make a nasty hole in a DR5 assault vest and the chap wearing it.

[CraigM]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

As you say it's all pretty fringe though, but I think a high quality fire axe with its pick end will make a nasty hole in a DR5 assault vest and the chap wearing it.

Yup.

However, by the time you've gotten to pickaxe range, a modern military unit will have sent an awful lot of ballistic lead in your direction, and possibly a few artillery strikes as well. Modern infantry isn't about one-on-one badassery; it's all about the team. Individual humans are nasty; collective humans are spectacularly lethal.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by CraigM

Yup.

However, by the time you've gotten to pickaxe range, a modern military unit will have sent an awful lot of ballistic lead in your direction, and possibly a few artillery strikes as well. Modern infantry isn't about one-on-one badassery; it's all about the team. Individual humans are nasty; collective humans are spectacularly lethal.

Oh absolutely as Crakkerjakk said this is all pretty fringe stuff.

In military terms even the few uses of actually melee weapons recently probably still don't involve melee weapons against armour.

I'm thinking WW2 and Korea had a few organised uses of melee weapons, but little armour.

Vietnam had more close range engagement and so use of melee weapons was probably more likely, but again little armour.

(tunnel fighting being a possible example)

Bayonet charges are still occasionally used, but again recent examples (the oft quoted chaps in the Falklands and Afghanistan) are probably using them against chaps with no armour.

Oddly I think you probably more likely to see it in policing, were engagement ranges are rather less, police are less reliant on artillery, and facing rather more eclectically equipped opponents.

If nothing else there's a reason why riot police still use shields, helmets and horseback, their fights are potentially more old school!

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I'd argue the over penetration rules from HT gives you that anyway.

If you use bleeding the most a rifle bullet to the torso will be 1xHP damage (i.e putting you at 0 HP), and if you don't use bleeding the max is 2xHP (i.e putting you at -1xHP).

The benefit of this is it puts an upper cap on damage but keeps the variation of effects by round types below that (7.62 will almost always hit the limit, a 9mm less so).

In fact given HP caps on Limbs, the only places you don't get capped damage is the vitals, neck, face and skull and most some of those have their own multipliers as well.

I think this has a much greater effect on the effects of gun shot wounds (especially the higher damage ones) than the actually dice rolled. It's the higher damage rounds that are most effected by the halving as well.

For me, it's less about straight up one-shot survivability and more about the frequency of limb crippling and a difficulty to survive multiple hits. Any average pistol will cripple an average person's limb on most hits, and having someone survive getting shot repeatedly with a pistol requires a LOT of lucky rolls. Half damage with an armor divisor fits my gut feeling for how effective pistols are (if you're not managing to hit the vitals or skull), while still retaining firearms as really damn dangerous, since even a regular semiauto pistol can be doing 3d pi+ a turn (if you hit with all three rounds).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Right, but like the Assault Vest is 12/5* (no plates), with the 12 being good against cutting and piercing..

This could be fixed by moving frag damage from cutting to piercing (with some even at P-, grenade fragments are very small). The 2D wound from a hand grenade doesn't really look much like the 2D from a broadsword.

There is the problem that Gurps probably underestimates the average number of hits from fragmentation weapons. Still if fragmentation becomes P then vests can have their full DR v. P only.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

For me, it's less about straight up one-shot survivability and more about the frequency of limb crippling and a difficulty to survive multiple hits. Any average pistol will cripple an average person's limb on most hits,

True, but I don't have major problem with not being able to use you arm once it's shot (you can still get a low roll and not be crippled but I agree it not likely)

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

and having someone survive getting shot repeatedly with a pistol requires a LOT of lucky rolls.

Well that depends are we talking about all of them in the torso? Say 3x 9mm 2d6+2 ve 9x3 = 27 points, that's -17 for a ST10 torso, so rolling to stay upright every sec and one roll not to die (although bleeding will probably get you to your next death roll pretty quick).

But that's 3 rounds in the torso, that seems OK to me.

there are lots of variables here, do you use random locations? That might mean a unlucky hit in the head, but it more likely to mean hits to the limbs that will cap each wound at 6HPs (but will cripple each one).

The over penetration cap limits larger rounds more than smaller ones. Which helps here.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Half damage with an armor divisor fits my gut feeling for how effective pistols are (if you're not managing to hit the vitals or skull), while still retaining firearms as really damn dangerous, since even a regular semiauto pistol can be doing 3d pi+ a turn (if you hit with all three rounds).

Assuming rcl of 2 that's a MOS of 4 a pretty good shot (if it's rcl 3 its MOS 6)

and even then 3x 1d6 Pi+ is 3x4 = 12 points damage against an un-armoured target. Don't get me wrong it will end the fight once he fails a HT roll to stay upright but only if you get all three.

Half damage on a 9mm is 1d6+1 Pi so 4.5 pts that's going to take 3 rounds to the torso before there's risk of dropping from dropping from shock. It will take 7 before there's even a risk of dying from anything other than medium term bleeding (7 seems a lot to me)

Only a roll of 5-6 will cripple a ST10 limb (weirdly a .45 will need to roll a 6 to do so because it loses the Pi+ mod)

the .45 at 1d6 Pi+ will do on average 5pts per round (once you half basic you get odd rounding issues).

going smaller and James Bond's in trouble*, his Walther PPK is doing (2d-1)/2 Pi-

so that's an average of 1pt per round, you could empty an entire clip and only get a ST10 target to less than 1/3 hp if you hit with every bullet.

Obviously you hoping for vitals hit on a 1 in 6 here. But even then you could take a round to the heart and still be in positive HP.

Going larger it become pretty irrelevant as the location limit kicks in anyway

a 7.62 at 7d is 21pts but that's capped at 10 on a ST10 torso (if your using bleeding).

If you halve it it's 10.5 which again is capped at 10 on the same torso. If you don't apply the torso cap, its still 10 pts of damage.

Against the vitals it will make a difference in theory (21x3 = 63, 10.5x3 = 31.5), but in reality that's the difference between automatically dead and making multiple stay alive rolls. Don't get me wrong that's a difference in terms of long term prognosis but in terms of staying in the fight not really (you're rolling at HT-2 every sec to stay concious, better hope they take prisoners).


Ultimately because you're halving stuff you'll get odd results I think with anything involving multipliers.

TBH if your main concern is crippling limbs with pistol rounds, maybe apply a limb damage mod Pi wounds of x0.5 when determining if the limb's crippled.

That way a 9mm doing 2d+2 Pi vs. a ST10 arm will need to roll a 10+ (10+2)*1*0.5 = 6 to cripple it

A .45 doing 2d Pi+ will need to roll 8+ (8)*1.5*0.5 = 6,

but a 5.56mm doing 4d+2 10+ (10+2)*1*0.5 = 6 if you use the halving rule on this 5.56mm you'd need to roll 5+ (5+1) to cripple which would be the same

You point about vitals and skull hits also gets odd with this rule

A .45 to the skull will be doing 1d (avg 3.5) -DR1 = 2.5 = 10pts so it will take 2 .45 rounds to the brain before dying is an immediate concern?

*although one could argue he should use a bigger round of course!

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

For me, it's less about straight up one-shot survivability and more about the frequency of limb crippling and a difficulty to survive multiple hits. Any average pistol will cripple an average person's limb on most hits, and having someone survive getting shot repeatedly with a pistol requires a LOT of lucky rolls. Half damage with an armor divisor fits my gut feeling for how effective pistols are (if you're not managing to hit the vitals or skull), while still retaining firearms as really damn dangerous, since even a regular semiauto pistol can be doing 3d pi+ a turn (if you hit with all three rounds).

That last seems a very, very big qualification, seeing as any semiauto pistol is at least rcl 2. You're not going to be doing that reliably unless your effective skill is around 17 (and your target isn't dodging). Does anybody but a cinematic action hero tend to shoot a handgun like that?

(Maybe a top-tier hostage-rescue type who, for some reason, is not using a longarm?)

[Crakkerjakk]

Tom, I'm not going to dig through a 20 paragraph post to find your point.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That last seems a very, very big qualification, seeing as any semiauto pistol is at least rcl 2. You're not going to be doing that reliably unless your effective skill is around 17 (and your target isn't dodging). Does anybody but a cinematic action hero tend to shoot a handgun like that?

(Maybe a top-tier hostage-rescue type who, for some reason, is not using a longarm?)

Look at what it takes to reliably do 3d as a melee combatant. Besides, MoS 4 is a bit high, but not really that high. I think it firmly establishes guns as "dangerous as hell for very little investment, but not automatic fight enders" which is where pistols should be, IMO. And swap it out for a semi auto rifle or shotgun loaded with 00 buck and you tend to rapidly get to "get hit more than once (unarmored) and the fight is over."

Basically, I think that pistol fights should end with a lot of holes poked in people that are bleeding heavily, but no automatic incapacitation or death unless you manage to hit the vitals or brain. This tends to be borne out by real world shooting statistics, IME. And halving damage for firearms while giving them an armor divisor is an easy and simple way to achieve that.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Tom, I'm not going to dig through a 20 paragraph post to find your point.

OK, but there's more than one (there normally is).

But to summerise:


1). Not sure getting crippled by a shot to the arm is wrong

2). Not sure getting shot three times in the torso isn't a reasonable risk of death, but it's still not the 'lots of lucky rolls' you cite (there are as ever lots of variables)

3). Things like random hit locations will make a big difference to what your citing.

4). Halving the basic damage gets you weird results in many cases.

5). The penetration cap give the same results as halving damage in many cases without the weird results.

6). If you really don't like crippled limbs from Pi wounds, change how Pi wounds cripple limbs.

Simple's