A possible problem with the rules for Military Rank

[acrosome]

Give us a situation and Thrash and I can model it for you. But Thrash's point is that in modern western militaries that situation will change often, the classic case being staff vs. command officers.

To give a concrete example, I was once a major who was in command of a very small unit of only twenty Soldiers. My Rank in GURPS terms would have been, what, Military Rank 2? But with another level of Courtesy Rank 1 on top of it.

A staff officer might be modeled similarly: Military Rank 1 (representing his own small staff of enlisted clerks), plus a level or two of Courtesy Rank on top of it to represent his actual rank. And let me assure you that when the S3 major tells someone in his unit to do something they will do it. They most definitely will not get pissy and say that their instructions must come from the commander directly.

Someone with ONLY Courtesy Rank is a retiree, or on the inactive list, or ashore on half-pay in the Napoleonic navy, or whatnot.

This all gets complicated in the situations that johndallman mentioned. For instance, I'm a doctor. I was often deployed not as an officer in a command position, but rather just as a doctor, so by RAW I had only Courtesy Rank. Nonetheless, when I was the highest-ranking guy on the FOB as a lieutenant colonel I pretty much got whatever I wanted despite only having Courtesy Rank. (And had to be careful not to abuse that.) The retired guy with Courtesy Rank doesn't get such consideration, because he really has no authority, whereas I most definitely still had real authority.

EDIT---

Actually, I just thought of an easy way to house rule this rather than making a new category of Rank or using Administrative Rank. It's much easier if you use the rules for Fractional Rank. Basically, the house rule is that so long as you have ANY amount of full Military Rank- including Military Rank 0- then any further Courtesy Rank on top of that counts as half of real Military Rank as far as pull within the organization is concerned. (In the US Army at least this is realistic- official unit commanders are given a lot of authority that non-commanders of similar rank lack.) For instance in the example above of me as a major commanding a unit of twenty my effective pull would be equivalent to Military Rank 2.5, due to Military Rank 2 plus Courtesy Rank 1. Likewise, a major who is S3 of a battalion would be Military Rank 1 plus Courtesy Rank 2, for an effective pull of Military Rank of 2. As a deployed lieutenant colonel doctor I had Military Rank 0 plus Courtesy Rank 4, for an effective Rank of 2.

Frankly, this fails the reality check since a battalion S3 in reality probably has more authority than a lieutenant platoon commander, but it's close enough. The lieutenant platoon commander almost certainly suffers from Reputation -1 (inexperienced shavetail, military members, all of the time), anyway, which results in something more realistic. This system also fails for things like the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who are not in the chain of command, and yet trust me a four-star flag officer has one hell of a lot of authority even when not in a command position. If you insist, pick a different fraction, but half will work well enough. You could also give the Joint Chiefs some positive Reputation to cover the difference. It's a damned prestigious posting.

If you think this makes Courtesy Rank marginally more valuable without raising its point cost, well, you're right. But there is precedence. Surgeon skill takes a -5 penalty in most situations if the character does not also have Physician skill. (This happens often at low TLs before the advent of Physician skill.) This should mean the Surgeon costs less in such situations, yet it doesn't. This house rule for Courtesy Rank would be similar.

[RyanW]

I generally read Rank as being based on the highest command you are eligible for. An infantry officer has full Military Rank, even if he isn't currently commanding a unit. A medical officer would have Courtesy Rank, maybe with a few levels of full rank to cover commanders of medical units (though the USN captain in charge of the most personnel - military and civilian - is probably the director of Walter Reed).

[acrosome]

A lot of the guys who have been in the military like to get very granular about such things, though.

FWIW, I have experienced some damned messed-up ideas among civilians about what being the military is like. When I first met my (incredibly civilian) wife she expected me to be some sort of gung-ho unthinking automaton. In fact she was actually surprised that I had a recognizable sense of humor. GURPSers, specifically, who have never been in the military also often seem to misunderstand the immense usefulness of Soldier skill in keeping both the competence and the the point totals of soldiers under control.

[thrash]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I googled LDOs and I'm not sure I understand the concept. I known an Ensign outranks the most senior NCOs, but it sounds like LDOs are fully commissioned officers, so does the normal rank higherarchy apply?

32 CFR § 700.902 Eligibility for command at sea.

"All officers of the line of the Navy, including Naval Reserve, on active duty, except those designated for the performance of engineering, aeronautical engineering or special duties, and except those limited duty officers who are not authorized to perform all deck duties afloat, are eligible for command at sea." (emphasis added)

So, if you have two surviving officers after a disaster at sea, one a regular line Ensign and one a Limited Duty Officer Commander, the Ensign takes command. In every other particular, however, the Ensign is still (very) junior to the Commander. Even if there is a line Marine Captain among the survivors, that officer is not qualified to take command of the ship -- the Ensign is still the skipper.

Similarly:

10 U.S. Code § 3579 - Command: commissioned officers of Army Medical Department

"(a) Except as provided in subsection (b), a commissioned officer of the Army Medical Department is not entitled to exercise command because of his rank, except within the Army Medical Department.
(b) An officer of the Medical Service Corps may exercise command of troops that are not part of the Army Medical Department whenever authorized by the Secretary of the Army. The Secretary of the Army may delegate such authority to appropriate commanders as the interest of the Army may require." (emphasis added)

10 U.S. Code § 3581 - Command: chaplains

"A chaplain has rank without command." (emphasis added)

As acrosome points out, however, you can get in just as much trouble for disrespecting a doctor or chaplain who is senior to you as any other officer of the same rank.

Also, outside LDOs, are there any situations where you think Courtesy Rank is appropriate for fully commissioned, active duty officers?

See above. I think Chaplains, who can never command, should have Courtesy Rank: they receive the formal respect due the rank they hold, but have none of the authority. An officer who is a permanent observer from a foreign country, who is not eligible for command, would also receive Courtesy Rank. (Note that this is not common: officer exchanges usually put the foreign officer in the chain of command for almost all purposes.)

Medical corps officers and LDOs maybe have a reduced cost version of Rank, but -- since they do have command authority among their own kind, where they normally work -- I'd go for the 4-point version, rather than Courtesy Rank.

[whswhs]

I certainly don't have military experience. But I have to say I never thought of Courtesy Rank as applying to an officer in a staff position while making their way up the promotion ladder. I thought of it more as being in a functional branch that's parallel to combat and doesn't involve leading troops in battle; signals, say, or medical.

Those complexities, too, were part of why I came up with the variants costs system in SE. Your retired colonel has 1 point for having a title. But your captain in signals also is an active participant in an organization that is (or is regarded as) serving their society as a whole, which is 2 more points, and perhaps gets a fourth point for dominance or uniqueness. So 4 points/level, which is a lot more than the 1 point/level for Courtesy Rank.

[Michael Thayne]

One specific situation I care about—if supers were incorporated into the formal military hierarchy. I initially thought there might be an inclination to commission supers who are clearly much more capable than the best special operators (think Avengers level), on the theory that they play a similar role to fighter pilots. However, it's one thing to do this for a super-scientist, but another to do this for a guy who grew up in a pocket dimension with limited access to formal education, if you don't want to wait four years to put him through a service academy. Maybe supers with less formal education would end up as warrant officers?

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

@Stormcrow: the thing in the rules I'm questioning is mostly the use of Courtesy Rank for active-duty personnel.

You described your perception of the problem with

A retired colonel might be called "colonel", but he can't give anyone orders. A lieutenant colonel serving as a staff officer, on the other hand, might not have a battalion to command but can still give orders if necessary, particularly in an emergency.

As I said, Courtesy Rank grants you the reaction modifiers of Military Rank without the resources or authority.

Let's suppose two characters. One is Lieutenant A, a retired first lieutenant of the US Army. While active, he commanded a platoon in a war zone. At the time, he had Military Rank 3 [15]. Now that he's retired, he has no Military Rank at all, but he now has Courtesy Rank 3 [3].

Lieutenant B, on the other hand, is an active first lieutenant doctor stationed in the US. He has a small staff of a few people and deals entirely in non-combat circumstances. The resources and authority to command only amounts to Military Rank 1 [5], but as a first lieutenant he's got Courtesy Rank 2 [2] to add up to a total reaction modifier as if he had Military Rank 3. But if he were suddenly thrown into a combat situation, he'd gain a brevet Military Rank (see Temporary Rank, p. B29) commensurate with the number of troops he's given command of.

Basically, ignore the nominal rank of the character and just go by what reactions, resources, and authority the character has. If circumstances change, so do the advantages.

P.S.: And yes, I read that about doctors not having command of troops. The rules for Rank are supposed to be generic. If the Army doesn't have officers who don't command and then suddenly do command, then there's no problem here to begin with.

[gruundehn]

As mentioned, GURPS does not model military rank structures well.

I am a retired TSgt in the USAF. When I was on active duty I was an E-6 and could, in theory, legally function as an E-6 in any other command structure in the US military. I was an electronics technician, with just a week's worth of combat training when I was an E-3 and a Security Police Augmentee. If I was the ranking individual in a combat unit, for whatever reason, I had the legal authority to command but unless I was stupid, I would defer to the senior NCO of that branch present.


As was mentioned, usually a rank had either command or non-command authority and that could change in an instant. GURPS cannot model this. So, take the rules as suggestions and use your own ideas to fit the campaign. Unless you are gaming with several military or ex-military types, it will not matter.


Oh, as a side note, when I was on active duty I growled at an officer more than once, quietly so that no one else heard, "Don't p*** off an old NCO." Commissioned officers usually understood.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by ericthered

For commissioned, active duty officers with courtesy rank, I'd take a good long hard look at special forces and pilots. They get a lot of respect, and they can only be commanded by high ranking officers, but they don't usually command large numbers of people: they are elite soldiers, not commanders. This will vary from situation to situation, but you may want at least consider whether Captain "Ace" Armstrong actually commands 100 men or whether he's just paid like he does (and possibly is just as effective and/or expensive to deploy).

This could also apply to pilots and doctors, at least in the Air Force.
They had the rank and could order lower ranking members around but most didn't actually have a command of their own. The O rank was in recognition of special training. extra pay and you just didnt want a sergeant flying and responsible for a plane.

EDIT
Forgot abut chaplins!
I would definitely give chaplins Courtesy Rank.
I like the suggestion above of adding Courtesy Rank to standard Rank for the non-command positions. They had to be treated with respect the full rank merited and could technically order any lower ranking member around (except where standing orders or some such applied) but most often didnt and knew not to abuse their rank.
But that status should be worth something, even if not full Rank and Courtesy or Informal Rank (-50%) apply.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by gruundehn

As was mentioned, usually a rank had either command or non-command authority and that could change in an instant. GURPS cannot model this. So, take the rules as suggestions and use your own ideas to fit the campaign. Unless you are gaming with several military or ex-military types, it will not matter.

I think that GURPS can model that perfectly straightforwardly.

Can you be assigned to command? If not, then you have something like Courtesy Rank (in base rules) or a lesser form of Rank (in the SE alternate system). If you can be, then you would normally have the GURPS Rank that matches the level at which you would be so assigned. GURPS doesn't try to model temporary fluctuations; if you can fluctuate between command and non-command, then you have sufficient Rank to command, even if you don't happen to be exercising that Rank right now. The Courtesy Rank option would apply only to someone who is not eligible to be assigned to command.

I think the things you're concerned about are legal and administrative details that fall below the level of resolution of GURPS mechanics. Of course you're perfectly free to take account of them in your particular campaign, handling them narratively.

I mean, for comparison, you have a character with 12 HP. They get in a serious fight and are wounded for 8 HP. Do you want to rewrite their character sheet to say "4 HP [-16]," or even "4 HP" with some qualification? That's really too much trouble for most people. Your character stays at 12 HP and you note the wound and keep track as it heals.