p.UT92 Nanofac

[scc]

I think the Machinist skill is needed to design what is actually produced, not to tell it to produce something, that would be Computer Operation, likely at default.

[Pectus Solentis]

Originally Posted by scc

I think the Machinist skill is needed to design what is actually produced, not to tell it to produce something, that would be Computer Operation, likely at default.

What does your paragraph mean?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Personally, I'd tend to assume that software complexity for higher TL skills should increase (as the technology assumed by the skill improves, the complexity of the software to support it would also increase, I think), and I'd apply the same increases to software complexity that Ultra-Tech assumes for its computer hardware - that is, +2 at TL 10, and another +1 at TL 11. So that would change the required complexity of the software to Complexity 6. I'd further suggest an increase of at least +2 Complexity when dealing with a large complex like the industrial nanofac, as opposed to the suitcase or workbench nanofacs. So that suggests that a suitcase nanofac should have a computer of Complexity 6 built into it, while an industrial nanofac would have a Complexity 8 one. You can use same math I used above to determine the IQ of a dedicated AI running on such computers, and hence how many points they'd need in skills to have reasonable levels.

By that logic, their CP cost should also increase. Such as by making them Very Very Very Hard Skills.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Pectus Solentis

What does your paragraph mean?

The nanofac needs molecular blueprints (UT p.91). It would be my ruling that if you had such blueprints you only beed to tell the nanofac to use them and that doesn't require a Skill roll.

You might (just might) be able to use a nanofac with Machinist Skill to make some object that does not normally require a nanofac such as a knife or similar simple macroscopic object.

With items whose complxity greatly exceeds that of a knife you need to have molecular blueprints and if you do not obtain such blueprints from another you need some Skill to create them. If there is no Engineering roll to create a design for a new type of device then Machinist might be enough to create the needed blueprints.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

By that logic, their CP cost should also increase. Such as by making them Very Very Very Hard Skills.

I disagree. The increasing complexity of the tools is, in large part, intended to mitigate the increasing complexity of the skill for the human involved. Take Mathematics, for example. At TL 1, Mathematics struggles to add or subtract. By TL 4, it's handling calculus. Obviously, the skill has increased in complexity. But since the tools, including both calculating devices and the references available, have improved as well, Mathematics as a skill isn't any more difficult at TL 4 than at TL 1.

Originally Posted by Pectus Solentis

Such a complex reasoning?

Apologies, I'll try to simplify.

Originally Posted by Pectus Solentis

At p.UT90, which and how high skills Robofac have is just written down. (Industrial Robofac has Machinist-14, Robotic Minifac has Machinist-13, Portable Robofac has Machinist-12)

While TL10 Robofac needs no external control and has its own skills, TL11 Nanofac (that is obviously advanced tool than TL10 Robofac) needing external control makes no sense, just I think.

The nanofac may be "more advanced" than the robofac, but that doesn't mean it will have all the same capabilities. The point of the robofac is automatic production. Thus, it has programs to handle construction on its own. The point of the nanofac, on the other hand, is to produce things lower TL devices can't create at all - a nanofac can produce living tissue, for example, just as easily as a machine. That flexibility, and the ability to produce stuff ten times as fast as the robofac, is what you're buying when you get a nanofac, not automation. If you want it to do all that on its own, you'll just have to pay extra.

[Pectus Solentis]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

The nanofac may be "more advanced" than the robofac, but that doesn't mean it will have all the same capabilities. The point of the robofac is automatic production. Thus, it has programs to handle construction on its own. The point of the nanofac, on the other hand, is to produce things lower TL devices can't create at all - a nanofac can produce living tissue, for example, just as easily as a machine. That flexibility, and the ability to produce stuff ten times as fast as the robofac, is what you're buying when you get a nanofac, not automation. If you want it to do all that on its own, you'll just have to pay extra.

Then, which quality will Nanofac be? Just a basic tool that gives no bonus to Operator's Machinist skill?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Pectus Solentis

Then, which quality will Nanofac be? Just a basic tool that gives no bonus to Operator's Machinist skill?

Correct, yes. If you want a better nanofac that gives a bonus to Machinist skill, you'll need to pay for that. See "Equipment Modifiers", p. B345, for the price modifiers for higher-than-Basic quality.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Pectus Solentis

Then, which quality will Nanofac be? Just a basic tool that gives no bonus to Operator's Machinist skill?

It gives no direct bonus, but it may indirectly change the difficulty of tasks.

[Pectus Solentis]

Hmm, The difference that Robofac's AI between Nanofac's (if there is) AI will bw that Robofac's AI is dedicated to admin the Robofac only, and Nanofac's AI is not dedicated to admin the Nanofac...? Just thinking the difference between TL10's AI technology and TL11's.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I disagree. The increasing complexity of the tools is, in large part, intended to mitigate the increasing complexity of the skill for the human involved. Take Mathematics, for example. At TL 1, Mathematics struggles to add or subtract. By TL 4, it's handling calculus. Obviously, the skill has increased in complexity. But since the tools, including both calculating devices and the references available, have improved as well, Mathematics as a skill isn't any more difficult at TL 4 than at TL 1.

TL4 is done on tools that merely a bit more convenient than the TL0 sand-and-stick, but don't fundamentally 'solve equations better'. The amount of stuff a person can do with Maths 12 [12], a writing implement, and a medium to write on, has increased tremendously from TL0 to TL4 in your example. A TL8 mathematician can still do a lot with TL0 tools - Hawking did a lot without tools at all. Some fancier higher-TL tools do open new options though. But if it doesn't offer a bigger bonus, it shouldn't have a higher cost. (In fact, 'best-for-TL' tools are generally set at a flat ×100 of the base tool cost, and the bonus just scales with TL.)