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Old 08-19-2019, 06:56 PM   #31
evileeyore
 
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

Your premise is flawed and based on a misreading:

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurf View Post
B269

U: Unbalanced, cannot be used to parry if attacked
Good so far...

Quote:
B270

†: Means weapon requires 2 hands but it can be used 1 handed if the min ST is x 1.5 but it also becomes 'U'. At min ST x 2 then the weapon is balanced.
That bolded word doesn't appear at all in the rules for unready weapons. You're conflating two seperate things.

And that's where your 'ergo' chain breaks.
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:25 PM   #32
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

There's a lot of discussion about the details of ‡ and U but I think what we should be talking about is why when you use a Greatsword with one hand (per One-Handed Two-Hander rule) it doesn't have U parry but merely -1 to damage, while a Bastard Sword has both? They're not so fundamentally different to warrant such a change, are they? I think tip-heavy sword that U notation makes sense are Falchions, so it's out of place on a Bastard Sword.


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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Which made sense when the gradient was set up back in the 1980s. However thanks to channels like Shadiversity we now know that gradient is wrong

As Shad shows a Bastard Sword (ie the 1 and a half handed sword) is actually shorter then the true Longsword (which is a two handed weapon) If that isn't enough fun there are longswords that are the same size as Great swords.
I'm not being specific about real names, I'm just saying that in GURPS terms a Longsword is closer to a broadsword while a Bastard Sword is closer to Greatsword.
I don't recall if it was Matt Easton or another youtuber, but I've heard that back in the times no one called one sword or another by such names, that it's all modern nomenclatures.
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Old 08-19-2019, 09:01 PM   #33
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Your premise is flawed and based on a misreading:

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurf View Post
B269

U: Unbalanced, cannot be used to parry if attacked
Good so far...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurf View Post
B270

†: Means weapon requires 2 hands but it can be used 1 handed if the min ST is x 1.5 but it also becomes 'U'. At min ST x 2 then the weapon is balanced.
That bolded word doesn't appear at all in the rules for unready weapons. You're conflating two seperate things.

And that's where your 'ergo' chain breaks.
Actually the exact wording of the passage on 270 is:
"“†” If you have at least 1.5 times the listed ST (round up), you can use a weapon like this in one hand, but it becomes unready after you attack with it. If you have at least twice the listed ST, you can wield it one-handed with no readiness penalty."

Technically "balanced" doesn't appear in that but the gist of that "you can wield it one-handed with no readiness penalty" is effectively the same. So smurf either has a case of right conclusion but not the right way of getting there or poorly summed up what the rule says, take your pick. But his basic conclusion is correct.

I should mention that Low Tech talks total nonsense regarding this and serves to only make things more confusing:

"LONGSWORD (pp. 66, 70) – Germany. A light THRUSTING BASTARD SWORD (pp. 54, B271, B274) designed for two handed thrusting." (sic)

Yet if you go on to the table a Thrusting Bastard Sword becomes unready but a longsword (same page number) doesn't. More over reach, cost, weight, and even ST requirement between the two types are different. Only the damage (sw+1 cut; thr+2 imp) is the same.

So this German sword is either a Longsword or it is a Thrusting Bastard Sword because by GURPS mechanics it can not be both! Worse it is the only actual example of a "Longsword" given in the whole freaking Low Tech book.

So you have two different names with two different types of readiness, reach, cost, and even ST requirement for the same weapon. Ugh. Worst yet the two Basic Set references don't even have "Longsword" in the tables. Wonderful.

If you are going to have a difference between a Bastard Sword and Longsword in terms of becoming unready after use, reach, cost, weight, and even ST requirement by actually adding "longsword" to the table then for the love of sanity tell us how they differ and do not use both terms for the same weapon in the one example you give in the whole book.

As presented the Longsword is lighter (by a pound; meaning less metal to make), cheaper (by $50), does same damage, and doesn't become unready like a Thrusting Bastard Sword so why would any fighter with a functioning brain in their head go for a Thrusting Bastard Sword?

Last edited by maximara; 08-19-2019 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 08-19-2019, 11:59 PM   #34
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
....

Technically "balanced" doesn't appear in that but the gist of that "you can wield it one-handed with no readiness penalty" is effectively the same. So smurf either has a case of right conclusion but not the right way of getting there or poorly summed up what the rule says, take your pick. But his basic conclusion is correct.

No, readiness (needing a ready action or not), and balanced (having U in parry or not) are not equivalent in GURPS.

That said I don't have a problem with a really strong wielder avoiding the U, I think Smurf's post had ST30 as the threshold. That's a human with a BL of 180lbs, so yeah I reckon such a person could swing a 3.33lb bastard sword about one handed without this issue.
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-20-2019 at 05:54 AM.
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Old 08-20-2019, 12:08 AM   #35
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Writers but not playtesters in my experience. Maybe just the line editor. I was a playtester for pretty much everything after 4e Basic and I have no feel for 0U.
OK but was 0U a new thing in 4e? If so and given how often it comes up I'm surprised it's never been playtested either initially or as part of later stuff I.e. when playetesting the options that effected it in MA ?

In concept I do find it somewhat odd as a hard and fast binary position that initially couldn't be adjusted (and can only be avoided by defensive attack and later by 'dwarven'). Given most things in GURPS work on a sliding scale maybe a range of parry penalties would be better. Especially as in this case the deciding factor between getting 0U or not is down to 2/3rds of a lb and an increase from 1 to 1,2 for Sw. I.e we're not talking about some fantasy Sw+5 8lb chopper here!
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Old 08-20-2019, 12:25 AM   #36
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
OK but was 0U a new thing in 4e? If so and given how often it comes up I'm surprised it's never been playtested either initially or as part of later stuff I.e. the options that effect it in MA ?

In concept I do find it somewhat odd as a hard and fast binary position that initially couldn't be adjusted (and can only be avoided by defensive attack and dwarvern). Given most things in GURPS work on a sliding scale maybe a range of parry penalties would be better
I was thinking along the same lines.

I have been playing GURPS for...a long time. But in the last 20 years it's only been Modern Shooting and CLiffhangers, so we don't run into heavy melee weapons very often, so the issue hasn' come up.

But if the "U" rule could be changes to become a modifier to Parries made in the same round as an Atack has been made, it would be a sliding scale rather than a binary thing.
It could also mean thet ST higher than Min could be used to reduce these penalties, although not in a 1:1 ratio and perhaps never fully reduces. To keep in line with Dagger and Double-Dagger rules, perhaps is ST is 5 over MIn then reduce Parry penalty by 1, and 10 more by 2?
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Old 08-20-2019, 02:03 AM   #37
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
I was thinking along the same lines.

I have been playing GURPS for...a long time. But in the last 20 years it's only been Modern Shooting and CLiffhangers, so we don't run into heavy melee weapons very often, so the issue hasn' come up.

But if the "U" rule could be changes to become a modifier to Parries made in the same round as an Attack has been made, it would be a sliding scale rather than a binary thing.
It could also mean thet ST higher than Min could be used to reduce these penalties, although not in a 1:1 ratio and perhaps never fully reduces. To keep in line with Dagger and Double-Dagger rules, perhaps is ST is 5 over Min then reduce Parry penalty by 1, and 10 more by 2?
Yep, thing is if you penalise parry be enough than you defacto end up making the wielder rely on other defences anyway (so same effect as the 0U rule), but a range of penalties allows for a range of positions where different balances of Skill, ST, MinST, weights and balances of weapon apply. You can even adjust it for different modes of use.

Example of that last one:

Do I think top heavy impact weapons like the axe and maces that appears in both one and two handed axe/mace listings is hard to swap between defence and attack in the GURPS turn time frame?*

Yeah no issues

But do I think it's as hard to do so when using it in two hands as in one hand? No I don't, but neither do I think the issue goes away entirely when using two hands, it just lessens.


(That difference in one handed and two handed use in this context is made but giving the bastard sword 0U in one hand but not in two handed use!)

And similarly do i think more skilled and/or stronger axemen are more able to mitigate this issue than a less killed and/or weaker ones yeah I do.


Of course defensive attack does offer a compromise point here as well (its just how much of a compromise it is depends on the weapon in question, where perhaps counter intuitively more edge example of weapons incurring the 0U penalty are more compromised that more clear cut ones)


EDIT: one option could be you offset parry penalties by voluntarily lowering ST in terms of calculating damage (and MinST) to buy off the penalty. Basically just the defensive attack idea (trade damage for more control in this area) but with a sliding scale included. maybe have an upper limit for how much this can be done by, so that as per you point the penalty in some more extreme weapons in this regard can't be completely negated in this way.


*leaving aside the point that by the historical record those are pretty heavy examples of "one handed" axes and maces
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-20-2019 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 08-20-2019, 02:25 AM   #38
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
...

I should mention that Low Tech talks total nonsense regarding this and serves to only make things more confusing:

"LONGSWORD (pp. 66, 70) – Germany. A light THRUSTING BASTARD SWORD (pp. 54, B271, B274) designed for two handed thrusting." (sic)

Yet if you go on to the table a Thrusting Bastard Sword becomes unready but a longsword (same page number) doesn't. More over reach, cost, weight, and even ST requirement between the two types are different. Only the damage (sw+1 cut; thr+2 imp) is the same.

So this German sword is either a Longsword or it is a Thrusting Bastard Sword because by GURPS mechanics it can not be both! Worse it is the only actual example of a "Longsword" given in the whole freaking Low Tech book.

So you have two different names with two different types of readiness, reach, cost, and even ST requirement for the same weapon. Ugh. Worst yet the two Basic Set references don't even have "Longsword" in the tables. Wonderful.

If you are going to have a difference between a Bastard Sword and Longsword in terms of becoming unready after use, reach, cost, weight, and even ST requirement by actually adding "longsword" to the table then for the love of sanity tell us how they differ and do not use both terms for the same weapon in the one example you give in the whole book.

As presented the Longsword is lighter (by a pound; meaning less metal to make), cheaper (by $50), does same damage, and doesn't become unready like a Thrusting Bastard Sword so why would any fighter with a functioning brain in their head go for a Thrusting Bastard Sword?
leaving aside perspectives on exactly what those differences should mean in game terms, I'm not sure what you describe is inconsistent with what is written in LT?

The long sword in LT is described as a "light Thrusting Bastard sword", and compared to the "standard" thrusting bastard sword it has different physical attributes and different stat derived effects accordingly.
I.e "light" is the important word in the line:

"A light THRUSTING BASTARD SWORD"

In reality these weapons were just generalised positions on a continuum of swords, and so yeah they can be described in relative terms. Especially when they are this close to each other on that continuum. Plus the nomenclature was pretty abstract and variable in usage as well as definition, with plenty of overlap and drift down the years

What's an "arming" sword, what's a "war" sword, what's a claymore, what's a "short" sword etc, etc.

The term bastard sword while not only being a localised term, directly references this idea of a sword that is positioned on a range of swords between other swords (it's not called bastard because it didn't know it's daddy sword, but because it's neither one or the other of it's "parent" swords).

Basically you are challenging the LT description on how do they differ and how does that translate in GURPS terms, but you answer you own questions by quoting the description and stats in LT.

But again there's a separate discussion to be had about do we think the differences are defined well by the current game stats both specifically to these swords and maybe in abstract in terms of U parry being a binary yes/no thing in a wide variety of weapons.
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Old 08-20-2019, 04:56 AM   #39
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
IIRC it is an artefact from the original version of GURPS. Low-Tech created the Longsword listing to present a more realistic version of this type of weapon.
The Longsword appears in Martial Arts a couple of years earlier, most likely to explicitly represent the 'longsword' used with the Longsword Fighting style.
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Old 08-20-2019, 05:03 AM   #40
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
No, readiness (needing a ready action or not), and balanced (having U in parry or not) are not equivalent in GURPS.

That said I don't have a problem with a really strong wielder avoiding the U, I think Smurf's post had ST30 as the threshold. That's a human with a BL of 180lbs, so yeah I reckon such a person could swing a 3.33lb bastard sword about without this issue
My solution to this issue with Bastard swords is that if you have sufficient ST to use the Two-handed table, but with one-hand, you can avoid the '0U' (and get extra damage). That is to say, at ST15+ you can use it one-handed without penalties, just as with ST18+ you can used a Greatsword one-handed.
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