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Old 08-02-2019, 02:51 AM   #1
Shoug
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Axes/Maces/Hammers Underpowered?

I was looking at the weapon talents and the weapon tables and finding the differences between them when I discovered something rather interesting. Polearms have their own special rules that make comparing them to regular weapons nearly impossible. But when I was comparing Axe's to Swords, I noticed that Swords were almost unilaterally superior to Axe's. The damages are mostly similar, except that swords get more damage earlier (Bastard Sword at ST 13 is simultaneously a Morning Star and a Great Hammer, which you get at ST 14). The Swords talent also gives you access to Knives for free! The only reason I could see to use Axes was the Small Axe, which is throwable.

Is a high damage thrown weapon really the only thing that the Axes talent offers from a mechanical perspective?
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Old 08-02-2019, 08:25 AM   #2
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Axes/Maces/Hammers Underpowered?

Don't axes tend to have more 'reliable' damage, but less chance of high (or low) results?

And you can throw anything up to a ST11 ax.

I've always considered that one major benefit, certainly of smaller axes, is that the city guard can't complain so much. Something like carrying a shotgun rather than an automatic weapon. And in some societies, arguably, the right to carry a sword is restricted to nobility or some such?

Last edited by MikMod; 08-02-2019 at 08:40 AM. Reason: throwing benefit
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Old 08-02-2019, 10:59 AM   #3
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Axes/Maces/Hammers Underpowered?

I don't know why the rules don't allow the larger axes to be thrown. It is entirely possible to accurately throw a two-handed axe, as can be seen in this youtube video.
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Old 08-02-2019, 11:50 AM   #4
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Axes/Maces/Hammers Underpowered?

Axes are on the same damage scale as swords, except for the 2-handed bastard sword in Legacy Edition, which is a change from the orginal ITL version which did 3d-2.

Funnily, there was someone yesterday on TFT Discord complaining that their favorite sword had been nerfed from 3d-2 to 2d+2!

However I would agree that I prefer the old 3d-2 to the 2d+2, because it does mean greathammers look inefficient at ST 14 2d+2.

The other differences are apples vs. oranges differences trading dice for constants, which means a trade-off between maximum damage and minimum damage. TFT almost always does this at a rate of +3 equals 1d, which means you tend to have a choice between something like 1d+2 (small axe) and 2d-1 (shortsword) at the same ST, or equivalent. 2d-1 has better maximum (and .5 better average) damage than 1d+2, but 1d+2 has a better minimum.

I tend to consider 2d-1 better than 1d+2, and 2d-2 (saber/cutlass) better than 1d+1 (hammer), but hammer and smallaxe are throwable, AND some players get really unhappy when they roll zero damage (see the recent thread here about that), which you can't do with 1d+1.

Also note that there are several points where the same damage is available to axes as swords: 9, 11, 12, 13 one-handed, and 15 vs 16 are on par.

And at ST 11, the mace both does the same 2d-1 damage as a shortsword, and is throwable.

There is a tradeoff however in cost versus weight - axes are heavier and cheaper.
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Old 08-02-2019, 02:35 PM   #5
JustAnotherJarhead
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Default Re: Axes/Maces/Hammers Underpowered?

Skarg,
Excellent analysis.

And funny enough, and I was literally laughing out loud, that dude complaining on Discord was Me.

As everyone knows 2d+2 is pretty good average damage, and very reliable on the long haul through a campaign, something like 3d-2 is just better theatrics to potentially deliver 16 hits to a creature in a single crushing blow, or in my case as one of my favorite tactics the SWEEP and deliver 3d-2 to potentially three foes. That was theatric and the stuff of legendary tales.

I'm totally fine with the damage modification of Steve n Crew, as long as it level and fair across the system.
I was laughing because, maybe it's luck, maybe something else, but it just so happened that the rule changes in particular smacked my favorite two-fisted fighter character squarely in the snout, in MULTIPLE areas, I actually had to abandon the whole concept and weapons selection and start from scratch.

There is a LOT of drawback to playing a Reptile man or as many call a Lizard man, and perks in HTH isn't enough to overcome with current rules.

But, in trying to find the light, I've set out how to do it successfully, and change gears with the new neutered Reptile man, and take advantage of the one thing I never had before in design and development, 'normal' experience point advancement. It'll be a rough go at first, but I'm hoping to live long enough to get back to that Starting St 14 DX 13 IQ11 character that was an absolutely asset in combat.

ps: I miss the little things that added flavor to characters like Dwarves having a propensity to carry axes and hammers, and do more damage with them, that alone kept Ax/Mace talent in fair regular use. which was the whole reason I was gonna post IN this thread...lol

pps: Is there a reason Elves get the love in the current revision? I particularly hated that in D&D and Ad&D.

Last edited by JustAnotherJarhead; 08-02-2019 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 08-03-2019, 09:17 AM   #6
Shoug
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Axes/Maces/Hammers Underpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
I don't know why the rules don't allow the larger axes to be thrown. It is entirely possible to accurately throw a two-handed axe, as can be seen in this youtube video.
I agree, axes are uniquely throwable. I think any Axe/Mace/Hammer should be throwable with the Thrown Weapons talent. That would honestly satisfy me. I'm just wondering why there are so little reasons to choose the talent RAW.
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Old 08-03-2019, 11:09 AM   #7
KevinJ
 
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Location: Arizona
Default Re: Axes/Maces/Hammers Underpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
I don't know why the rules don't allow the larger axes to be thrown. It is entirely possible to accurately throw a two-handed axe, as can be seen in this youtube video.
However, those are specifically weighted axes thrown from a specific distance. A lot of axe and dagger throwers cannot throw as well in dynamic situations. HOWEVER! The Dane did throw some really big axes, but that was to break up formations, not put the blade in some specific guys face. The Franks did the same with the unpredictable Francisca axe.
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Old 08-03-2019, 12:45 PM   #8
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Axes/Maces/Hammers Underpowered?

The to-hit roll models whether or not one puts the correct spin on the weapon to let it hit at a given distance.
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