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Old 07-08-2019, 11:31 AM   #21
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
No I did not. I have a really bad Internet connection here.

Also, I was answering someone else and you're not the original poster.
And so anything I say is irrelevant? Jeez.
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Old 07-08-2019, 11:39 AM   #22
zot
 
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
Yes, but you are extensively quoting and then extrapolating from the exceptions text rather than the general text for illusions. I believe this leads you into a very different view of illusions to mine.

A truly summoned creature is certainly really there in a way an illusion is not. It actually has real eyes for a start, whereas your illusion 'behaves as its master thinks the world is' not how it really is. So it's visual 'reports' aren't based on actual eyes, but on 'the mind of the wizard' and what he knows about the world. Compare with the passage on gates...
The text under "Creation Spells" is a general rule, "A wizard can see through the eyes of the summoned beings, images, or illusions brought by his Creation spells".

This is the RAW text, which explicitly includes images or illusions with no exceptions given.
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Old 07-08-2019, 11:40 AM   #23
zot
 
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
And so anything I say is irrelevant? Jeez.
What you say is very relevant.

But if someone else is asking a question, should I ignore them because you don't want elaboration? That doesn't seem very fair to other people to me.
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Old 07-08-2019, 11:44 AM   #24
zot
 
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
The text under "Creation Spells" is a general rule, "A wizard can see through the eyes of the summoned beings, images, or illusions brought by his Creation spells".

This is the RAW text, which explicitly includes images or illusions with no exceptions given.
I think the key point here is that illusions and images are creation spells and they follow the general rules for creations.
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Old 07-08-2019, 12:00 PM   #25
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
Also, p139 says that illusions of fire, wall, shadow, handheld weapons, and rope "behave like the real thing". I.e. an illusion of fire can actually burn your clothing. An illusionary knife can cut through a rope. The text says these kinds of illusion have somehow acquired extra power.
No, they can't. They just make people think they do. See the example of how an illusion killing someone in armor leaves a dead body inside perfectly intact armor.


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Originally Posted by zot View Post
Note that this also means an illusionary wall can actually support and protect from physical things.

Walls are as expensive or more expensive than illusions, btw, so why anyone would learn and use them instead of illusions is beyond me. Who disbelieves a wall?
No, it can't. See the example of the illusion of a pit, which might result in someone thinking they've fallen in, but really when the illusion ends, they'll be seen to just be lying on the ground.

People who disbelieve walls tend to be people who are familiar with a place to know there wasn't a wall there before, or who saw the wall magically appear.
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Old 07-08-2019, 12:55 PM   #26
zot
 
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
No, they can't. They just make people think they do. See the example of how an illusion killing someone in armor leaves a dead body inside perfectly intact armor.



No, it can't. See the example of the illusion of a pit, which might result in someone thinking they've fallen in, but really when the illusion ends, they'll be seen to just be lying on the ground.

People who disbelieve walls tend to be people who are familiar with a place to know there wasn't a wall there before, or who saw the wall magically appear.
OK, what does "Illusions of Inanimate Objects" on page 139 mean when it says these illusions of walls, shadows, fire, hand-held weapons, and magic rope "behave just like the real thing until it vanishes or is disbelieved"?

What is the "extra power" that the section says this limited set of illusions has acquired?

Why does it specifically list only these illusions as having acquired this "extra power"?
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Old 07-08-2019, 01:35 PM   #27
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
OK, what does "Illusions of Inanimate Objects" on page 139 mean when it says these illusions of walls, shadows, fire, hand-held weapons, and magic rope "behave just like the real thing until it vanishes or is disbelieved"?

What is the "extra power" that the section says this limited set of illusions has acquired?

Why does it specifically list only these illusions as having acquired this "extra power"?
Oh, sorry, I forgot all about that paragraph. Yeah, that does say that for those specific illusion types - they can mimic the effects of those spells, or of a basic weapon. Good point, though of course exceptions to the general rule that "most inanimate illusions are quite intangible."
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Old 07-08-2019, 02:02 PM   #28
MikMod
 
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

Which is what I've been saying. You can't based your approach to all illusions on the text for the couple of (possibly not used in every campaign) exceptions.

Illusions are not the same as summoned creature. They can't be used in the same way.
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Old 07-08-2019, 02:05 PM   #29
MikMod
 
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
The text under "Creation Spells" is a general rule, "A wizard can see through the eyes of the summoned beings, images, or illusions brought by his Creation spells".

This is the RAW text, which explicitly includes images or illusions with no exceptions given.
And you want to selectively ignore the other RAW text I posted which shows you how illusions are different?

I didn't say a wizard couldn't see through their eyes, only that what they see will be determined by what they think they will see, not by what is there. Illusions do not have real eyes, the wizard only thinks they do.
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Old 07-08-2019, 02:35 PM   #30
zot
 
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
And you want to selectively ignore the other RAW text I posted which shows you how illusions are different?

I didn't say a wizard couldn't see through their eyes, only that what they see will be determined by what they think they will see, not by what is there. Illusions do not have real eyes, the wizard only thinks they do.
Where do the rules say that a wizard will only see what they think they will see?

Also, why does a spell need real eyes to see? Does scrying use real eyes?
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