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Old 06-17-2019, 09:35 AM   #1
nemomeme
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Default Two Weapons - Weapon Expertise - Defend

1) If a hero possesses both of these Talents and chooses the Defend option do foes need 5/DX to hit them with melee attacks and the hero receives the benefit of stopping 4 hits if they do somehow manage to strike the hero?

2) In any case, the foes are not also at a -1 DX to hit, correct? (i.e. the 5th die is instead of the -1 DX) ITL p.41

3) Irrespective of Talents, the Defend option doesn't care about whether the melee attack is coming from the side or the rear, so such attacks can still be parried?

A 32-point character with ST 9 DX12 IQ 11 can begin with this capability.
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:37 AM   #2
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Two Weapons - Weapon Expertise - Defend

Quote:
Originally Posted by nemomeme View Post
1) If a hero possesses both of these Talents and chooses the Defend option do foes need 5/DX to hit them with melee attacks and the hero receives the benefit of stopping 4 hits if they do somehow manage to strike the hero?

2) In any case, the foes are not also at a -1 DX to hit, correct? (i.e. the 5th die is instead of the -1 DX) ITL p.41

3) Irrespective of Talents, the Defend option doesn't care about whether the melee attack is coming from the side or the rear, so such attacks can still be parried?

A 32-point character with ST 9 DX12 IQ 11 can begin with this capability.
1) No. The parry with two weapons is not synonymous with defending. Defend is its own action

2) I would say yes, the foes are -1 in all cases (at least of melee attacks through a front facing). This benefit is not associated with a particular action.

3) The Two Weapons parry is not explained in much detail but sounds interchangeable with an attack. Given that shield defensive protection is influenced by facing and attacks can go to only one facing that the parry only counts vs. your front facing.
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:42 AM   #3
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Two Weapons - Weapon Expertise - Defend

Nice question.

I think the -1 DX to all attacks is just there all the time 'as long as they have the weapon in hand'.

If they take the defend option which would normally be 4D to hit, it will become 5D because of Weapon Master.

But Defend is not Parry (the special Two Weapons Option) so they would NOT get 4pts of armour.

The grey area for me is, well can they defend with their main weapon and either parry or attack with their second? Its not clear IMO. So a generous GM might give you two points of armour, or a DX-4 attack? It feels like they could take the Two Weapons option (b) and instead of attack and parry, do a defend and parry? On the basis that their off hand weapon is basically a shield in that situation?

So I think I would allow defend with 2pts of armour against hand attacks from the front, with front hand attackers needing to roll 5D on DX-1 to hit. Pretty good!
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:43 AM   #4
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Two Weapons - Weapon Expertise - Defend

Quote:
Originally Posted by nemomeme View Post
...A 32-point character with ST 9 DX12 IQ 11 can begin with this capability.
(Unless the GM doesn't allow expert talents to starting characters.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
1) No. The parry with two weapons is not synonymous with defending. Defend is its own action

2) I would say yes, the foes are -1 in all cases (at least of melee attacks through a front facing). This benefit is not associated with a particular action.

3) The Two Weapons parry is not explained in much detail but sounds interchangeable with an attack. Given that shield defensive protection is influenced by facing and attacks can go to only one facing that the parry only counts vs. your front facing.
I agree with all of these answers.
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:50 AM   #5
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Two Weapons - Weapon Expertise - Defend

Actually I think you are right. Or not (sorry!)

The new ITL has modified the double parry option for Two Weapons to include an extra die to hit.

So take the double parry option and you get: 4D to hit, at -1 DX, with 4 points of armour.
Or take defend and get: 5D to hit at -1DX, with no points of armour.

And with the defend option, argue with your GM about the off-hand weapon acting as a 'shield'?

Last edited by MikMod; 06-17-2019 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Got it wrong!
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:51 AM   #6
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Two Weapons - Weapon Expertise - Defend

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
(Unless the GM doesn't allow expert talents to starting characters.)
That's just mean ;)
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Old 06-17-2019, 12:46 PM   #7
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Two Weapons - Weapon Expertise - Defend

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
Actually I think you are right. Or not (sorry!)

The new ITL has modified the double parry option for Two Weapons to include an extra die to hit.

So take the double parry option and you get: 4D to hit, at -1 DX, with 4 points of armour.
Or take defend and get: 5D to hit at -1DX, with no points of armour.

And with the defend option, argue with your GM about the off-hand weapon acting as a 'shield'?
Why are you suggesting you could get 4D to hit combined with 4 points of armor? The 4 points of armor comes from the Two Weapons double 'parry' action, which is otherwise interchangeable with an attack. It is not a Defend action and has no implications for the number of dice rolled vs. you. And, because you are not defending there is no modification on number of dice rolled vs. you for being a weapon expert. It should be EITHER you select the Defend action and folks roll on 5d with a -1 but no armor points, OR you effectively choose the Attack action but use it to double parry, and people roll on 3d with a -1 to hit but you get 4 points of armor.
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Old 06-17-2019, 12:56 PM   #8
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Two Weapons - Weapon Expertise - Defend

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Why are you suggesting you could get 4D to hit combined with 4 points of armor? The 4 points of armor comes from the Two Weapons double 'parry' action, which is otherwise interchangeable with an attack. It is not a Defend action and has no implications for the number of dice rolled vs. you. And, because you are not defending there is no modification on number of dice rolled vs. you for being a weapon expert. It should be EITHER you select the Defend action and folks roll on 5d with a -1 but no armor points, OR you effectively choose the Attack action but use it to double parry, and people roll on 3d with a -1 to hit but you get 4 points of armor.
Unless I completely misread it, the new ITL has added an extra die to hit anyone with Two Weapons taking option (c), the double parry.

P41 ITL: "(c) parry with both weapons, adding an extra die to attempts to hit you and stopping 4 points of damage"

That is a change from the old ITL, which is what tripped me up.

Last edited by MikMod; 06-17-2019 at 01:01 PM. Reason: Added quote.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:09 PM   #9
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Two Weapons - Weapon Expertise - Defend

You're right! My eyes just skipped right over that change. I've been playing this game too long to keep track of what was old vs. what is new vs. what I've made up...
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:48 PM   #10
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Two Weapons - Weapon Expertise - Defend

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
You're right! My eyes just skipped right over that change. I've been playing this game too long to keep track of what was old vs. what is new vs. what I've made up...
Me too! I used to know this game inside out. Feels like I'm relearning it. :)
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